TV broadcast audio Level question

[Bryce Douglass]

Ummmm,

When did I ever mention I was airing this on PBS? Also, I can’t send them the raw footage. I already edited my film. Second of all the public access stations told me to send them a dvd as a high quality master. I’m only following their rules. Third, I won an award for this film at a film festival with max peak at -6db. I don’t need anyone to color grade edit etc. I just need to find out why the audio isn’t working right.

Bryce

[Bob Mark]

I am curious as to why, specifically, your audio failed QC. What did they say about it?

You might find this info interesting.

https://blog.frame.io/2017/08/09/audio-spec-sheet/

Bob

[Tim Wilson]

[Bob Mark] “I am curious as to why, specifically, your audio failed QC. What did they say about it?”

That’s the key question. If they’re saying the audio is still high, you need to lower it, regardless of what Premiere is telling you.

Is that what they’re saying, or is it something else?

[Bouke Vahl]

My bad, I was mistaking public access TV with PBS.
Next, don’t mix up DVD (a digital storage medium, capable of storing UHD HDR if you like) with DVD video (a low quality ancient obsolete system to replace VHS.)
Third, you did not understand anything I wrote in my (seems moderated) previous message, did you?

Small hint, when I told you to send them your raw footage, I was being sarcastic.
This is (@moderators also) a form of humor.

Bouke
http://www.videotoolshed.com

[Bryce Douglass]

Okay, this is ridiculous. I lowered it even more. Sent the stations a new video file and now I’m being told the audio is too quiet. What the heck is going on?

Bryce

[Bob Mark]

Do you have their specifications for deliverables?

Bob

[Bryce Douglass]

I asked for their specifications and I’m just told -12d. They won’t explaij anything else. My friend thinks this is their way way of denying to air my film not sure why they would deny it when I filled out an application the stations saw the film said they would air it but said the audio has to be different. I even followed these instructions https://larryjordan.com/articles/premiere-pro-cc-loudness-radar-and-average-audio-levels/

Even after using he plugin in mentioned in this article stations say it’s still not right.

Bryce

[Tim Wilson]

Hi Bryce,

I know that this is frustrating. It’s definitely possible that they’re trying to thwart you in some back door manner, but it’s far more likely that they’re just doing their job. Their job is to keep out-of-spec footage from airing, full stop.

Their job doesn’t include helping you bring it in to compliance . It’d be nice if they were nice about it, but we don’t know what else is going on with their day. It just might not be possible for them to help…but in any case, that’s really not their job.

There are a couple of other steps to consider in the meantime. Did you read the frame.io link that Bob included in an earlier reply? Here’s the link again.

You really need to check it out. It’s got bunches of super-important stuff that Larry’s article doesn’t begin to touch. That one is focused almost exclusively on LKFS, but there’s much, much more to the audio spec than that.

Here’s a key image from the frame.io article. It’s the Netflix spec, which is different from a broadcast spec, but still, it shows some important principles.

Check out what it says about peaks — you need to manage peaks with a limiter, and NOT by lowering overall program volume. So they’ve given a maximum peak level, but also a minimum program level.

(This is a good time to raise the question — has the station given you the entire spec, or just a guideline for peaks? Not the same. Not the same at all. Get the entire spec.)

If you followed Larry’s and Ed’s advice, you’d have moved in the right direction for handling peaks, but you’d be missing the mark on program volume. It’s possible that that’s why the engineers would say, okay, fine, you’ve got the peak level under control, but everything non-peak is now too low.

Also note in the rest of the frame.io article that they’re not using a native Premiere plug-in. They’re using Izotope Insight, a vastly more extensive toolset that’s focused on this exact set of problems. It’s not expensive — only $149, with a free trial — but I think it’s an absolutely critical missing link to what you’re attempting here.

Look at this video. I think you’ll see in literally the first 2 seconds the difference between what you’ve done, and what you NEED to do if you want to get this on TV. There are vastly more tools, and a huge amount of information that Loudness Radar just isn’t designed to provide.

Before I end this reply, I just want to assure you that the old-timers here been where you are before, going back 25 years to when this forum was first founded. We constantly fought with engineers (not just in broadcast, but at post houses, duplication houses, and many more) about what was acceptable video. As a community, we went through a very long learning curve to bridge the gap between what NLE companies said was broadcast-quality, and what broadcast engineers said was broadcast quality.

The answer turned out to be relatively simple. Stop fighting and do what the broadcast engineers said. ???? Although in your case, I’m still wondering if the engineers have told you enough. There really should be a printed spec that includes more than guidance about peaks.

This is getting longer than I intended, but here’s the bottom line. Audition is a good starting place but in this case clearly not enough to get you across the finish line. The good news is that you really may well find the rest of what you need in Izotope for a very reasonable price. Until you’ve at least taken it for a spin, you haven’t done the minimum required to meet the entire spec.

Don’t give up yet, Bryce! Keep taking steps, and keep letting us know what you find.

[Bouke Vahl]

Well, if the specs state LFKS or LUFS, it’s a very easy job.
No need for roundtrips, as Adobe has a build in loudness tool.
For the Netflix specs:
(i did not watch the entire video, it’s way too complicated / sophisticated software for this job.)
The specs are really relaxed. Just make a nice mix, then do a very small (2dB) bit of peak limiting on the sound. (If the sound was recorded with a good field mixer with limiters on it is not even needed.

Then analyze the LUFS (LFKS), and up/lower the overall volume until you are at -24 LFKS. (Where a LUF / dbfs is 1 dB)
You can be off by 2, where any half decent attempt will bring you in a range of being off by just 0.3 or so.

Now for the old fight, in my case it was buying RTW meters (hardware peak meters with a lowered display of very short peaks to avoid madness, and correlation meters to warn about phase issues, from memory some 3500 UDS back then.)

But the OP suggests the specs are NOT about loudness, but about level. (And yes, those are two complete different things. On a normal mix, -24 LUFS corresponds with -10 dB (in digital, -1 analogue with 9 dB headroom).
But on a ‘fixed’ commercial, the same peak level at -10 dB should be lowered by 6 LU to become -24 LUFS.
(I really love the new R128 / CALM specs. It’s easy to make, gives you a tremendous amount of freedome and is nice for the audience.)

Bouke
http://www.videotoolshed.com