The P2 stradegy is just plain DUMB.

[Blub06]

He he he, your not allowed to say such stuff here…

Better duck!

Your right P2 is dumb, but its really just a strange side show, the camera is the thing, and its final image quality. Who knows what that will be, I guess by the end of the year we will know.

By the way, a 60 gig drive, which is my preferred solution to this P2 joke, will hold about 80 minutes of 1080p footage, if all the figures I have been reading are real, i.e., 12.5 megs per second data rate. That solves all my problems.

PS: I don’t do bits.

Chris

[Steve Connor]

This is gonna be painful to watch!!

Steve Connor
Cardinal HD

[Chris Bell]

Matt,

I think you have completely missed the point of this camera. First, you have to realize that it is not an HDV camera recording heavily compressed HD video in long GOP to a mini-dv tape. The HVX-200 will record a much higher quality HD image than either the Sony Z1 or the new JVC… Believe me, there is a huge difference especially with 4:2:2 color space. There is still no HD camera (except for the Panavision HDCAM SR) which can do variable frame rate… another advantage of the HDX. I think once you understand how much data is involved, you will better understand why there are limitations of record time. Better quality = more data. Sure, Panasonic could have crammed a DVCPROHD recorder into the camera, but it would cost $35,000 instead of $10,000.

The HVX-200 is not going to be for everybody, but I don

[Ed Dooley]

I think it would have been hard for Panasonic to announce a portable, battery powered hard drive bigger than 60gigs, until now. Portable notebook drives had gotten up to 100gigs, at slower 4,200 and 5,400 speeds, but when Panny announced the hard drive solution nobody had 7,200 2.5″ drives bigger than 60 gigs. But Seagate *just* announced their 7,200RPM, 2.5″, 100gig drive this week. By the time the camera comes out there will be solutions to at least some of your complaints. I’m guessing P2 card sizes will go way up and prices will come way down by then too. Archiving raw footage, I don’t have an answer (for me) yet.
Ed

[Luis Caffesse]

[mattso] If the intention is to sell cameras that a person can use in a scripted shooting environment, where 15 minutes of footage CAN constitute a day’s work, then perhaps this camera is appropriate. But ‘scripted’ implies a ‘budget’ and this begs the question, why would a professional use a camera like this in a scripted environment, when one could use Varicam, SDX900, or even Sony’s HD stuff.

“Scripted” does not always equal ‘budget.’
And, even if it does imply some sort of budget, it doesn not always imply “large budget.” So, this camera does fit in to many people’s needs, myself included. I do a lot of shooting, and a lot of it is scripted work (commercial, broadcast, and corporate work mainly, as well as my own projects).

I’ve shot on every DVCPro format, and everytime I do I need to go out and rent. For many of my clients, the added advantages of the VariCam are not a factor, some only need slowmotion for a certain product shot, etc. For some, the only reason we go with DVCPro50 is to pull a better matte than we can with DVCPro or DV. So, it’s not always an issue of camera form factor, lens, or even chip size. Sometimes just shooting to a different codec can make the difference. I haven’t purchased a camera in years due to the fact that I’ve been shooting on so many different ones, it just didn’t make sense. But, the HVX200 will allow me to shoot on all 3 formats, and it should cover the bulk of the jobs I do. Yes, there will still be times where I will need to rent, but for the majority of jobs the HVX should do just fine.

And if one is not a professional, with a budget, why not use the much less expensive DVX100a. Or an XL2… Unless you’re going to show your film on the BIG SCREEN, and how many people actually do..?.. why HD at all? Why 24p, for that matter, unless you’re making a film print.

Some clients like the look of 24P, some prefer the look of 30P.
When working in as a freelancer, as I do, having options for my clients makes it much easier to give them what they want (i.e. makes it easier to get the job). And, owning my own gear lowers my overhead, and increases my profit margin.

Many people prefer to shoot on HD in order to ‘future proof’ their work.
I’ve shot a number of local commercials in HD, even though the local stations are broadcasting in SD.

Why would anyone spend this kind of money on a unibody dv camera?

Well, first off it’s a unibody HD camera.
And secondly, I would point out that the price difference between the HVX and the Sony Z1 (which you say you’ll choose instead) is less than $50.
So apparently spending this kind of money on a unibody camera isn’t as ridiculous as you thought it was.

It is wholly useless as a news gathering HD camera, or as a documentary camera – for people like me, who shoot a lot of BTS footage, and are commonly rolling 2 hours of tape in a day’s shooting – and then go cut the stuff we shoot – this is a completely useless format.

For people like you, it might not be the right choice.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, P2 is not a magic bullet.
This isn’t supposed to be the answer to all questions, and it would be ridiculous to think that it should be the ‘perfect’ camera for any shooting situation. Much like I wouldn’t shoot anything relying on fast motion in HDV, I wouldn’t shoot anything that relied on long takes on P2.

Everything has it’s benefits and drawbacks.
It’s just a matter of weighing those and choosing what works for you.
But there is no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. I personally don’t see HDV or XDCam (for example) being a solution for my projects, but I’m not going to say it’s a ‘useless format.’ Obviously many have found a use for it.

8 minuted of HD on a chip…
How lame can this possibly be? Hotswapable, Yeah, like that’s the least bit practical – have any of these guys ever tapes a concert, or a wedding or a news conference? bumping a camera every 8 minutes to get you cards in and out… that dog don’t bark!

Again, it will work for some, but not for others.
Perhaps it will work for you when the cards get larger?
Either way, again it’s not a ‘catch all’ format, nor should we expect it to be. I could say the same thing about the GOP structure and high compression of HDV, because for me it renders the format useless. But like I said, for many people those things are not an issue.

The P2 camera is not replacing every other camera on the market.
There are plenty of other options out there. Looks at what they all have to offer, and choose the one that fits your needs the best.
I think many will find that the HVX fits their needs, as it does mine.

Second BIGGEST ISSUE:
No Masters.
No camera masters.
Unless you want to buy a zillion p2 cards at a zillion dollars a piece, you are going to have buy an HD deck and HD tape stock to make actual tangible masters. And don’t tell me Hard Drives are practical for this. If you could see my tape storage, you’d laugh… imagine 673 lacie harddrives in your closet…. or send one off to a client who needs the footage for another project, (EPK’s etc…) they’d look at you like you’re insane.

I see no problem with hard drives, but that’s just me.
Hard drive storage is cheaper than DVCProHD storage, price it out and you’ll see.

As far as sending footage to clients, that’s not something I’ve actually ever had to do. But I suppose if you did, a client might be pleased to know they won’t have to waste any time logging or capturing a tape, and can drop the footage directly into the edit system.

This camera just doesn’t know what it wants to be. is it a very expensive DV camera with the ability to be over and under cranked, and a completely impractical HD capacity? If so, who’s buying? Wealthy prosumers?
Or is it a professional camera, for filmmakers on a budget who make a lot of theatrically released films, and who only shoot a few minutes of tape at a time? And if so, how many of those kinds of buyer are there?

I think we’ll be suprised as to how many of these buyers there are.
There are plenty of people out there, like me, who have been waiting for a camera that has these sorts of options. You see a camera that doesn’t know what it wants to be, but I see a camera that offers me the option to shoot virtually any format I need at whichever framerate I need. It’s all about options.

I’m sorry for being the loud mouth neigh-sayer here, but let’s talk about the elephant in the room…

No problem, I welcome any healthy discussion about the pros and cons of this format, and the camera itself.

I’ll stick with my DVX100a and Sony BetaSP packages for now, and probably buy the Sony HDV camera.

Again, you’re talking about a unibody camera that only costs $50 less than the HVX. So I guess the pricing is about right for a unibody camera, and not as out of whack as you thought at first.

Unless panasonic gets build a bigger tape mechanism into this thing and provide a responsible ammount of HD storage… or at least dvcpro50….

This has already been mentioned, but the use of P2 is the entire reason that this camera can be priced as low as it is. The tape transport alone in the VariCam costs more than twice the cost of this camera. There is no way to put a DVCPro50 or DVCProHD tape transport into the HVX and keep the price anywhere near $6000. So, what you view as drawbacks of P2 are things that are unavoidable in order to have DVCPro50 and DVCProHD at an affordable price.

And don’t give me that ‘the future is solid-state’ argument. I invented that argument! (shades of John Kerry) Don’t sell me the future until you understand the needs of the present. Panasonic clearly is having some problems in that regard.

Again, perhaps they are not giving you a solution that fits your present needs, but they are answering the needs of many people like myself. We all don’t shoot the same sorts of project, and we all don’t need the same sorts of things from our cameras. To some long record times matter, to others they don’t. This isn’t the answer to every single shooting scenario.
To say that Panasonic is having problems understanding the needs of the present is a bit outlandish. Apparently they do understand your present needs to some extent, seeing as you plan to hold onto your DVX for the time being.

DAmnn! And I was really loving that slo-mo thing… “

It is nice, isn’t it?
I can’t wait to see it in action.

Luis Caffesse
Studio 3 Productions, Inc.
Austin, Texas

[Graeme Nattress]

P2 is not dumb, but forwards thinking. Sellotape dipped in rust and lubricated with whale oil is dumb!

Yes – we fully understand you can’t see all the pieces in the workflow yet, but that’s because Panasonic have to make the camera so that people can design products that work with it, and that’s partly, I think, why we’re hearing about it now before it’s released and the spec totally finalised.

As for “no masters” – with lossless digital transfer you can make as many masters as you want. With tape, you’re stuck with one master, and if you want more, it had better be in a format you can dub loslessly. So yes, stick with your BetaSP which will degrade the footage your camera produces compared to any digital format, and DV which gives you an hour recording in SD. If you want tape at high quality, then get the Varicam or SDX900. If you’re ready to adopt new workflows, then go p2 and use the P2 to your advantage. Nobody is suggesting you have a cupboard full of drives. But people do do this now, and it does work for them. Holographic storage is around the corner, blur ray and higher density optical disc storage is just about here, and they’re all more appropraite for archive than tape.

Graeme

– http://www.nattress.com – Film Effects for FCP

[Toke]

Well, if there’s a production that combines “scripted”+”budget”+”15mins a day” I’d suggest using film.
Cheaper (if s16) and better quality.

And we are living in digital age:
every copy is a Master.
You can copy your p2’s to tape, optical disk or hard disk.

If you are worried about your shelf space with your tapes, dvcproHD tape is 35GB.
You can put 10 of those tapes to one hdd and save a lot of space.
As a backup, you could use 50GB blu-ray disks and save space also with them, when you don’t have to
keep all half empty tapes.
And all your archive is “near on-line” = instantly editable.

8 minits limit is _very_ limiting. I’d say p2 cards will be widely usable when we have 32GB cards.
Nevermind the price of cards, by the time we’ll have cf card adapters…

[Mattso]

Good points all…
But Graeme, you should know – it’s not tape I’m in love with – it’s truly removable media. Like the optical disks and such that you mentioned. Stackable, cheap removable media that a guy can label and ship and which other guys can put it in their deck and it WORKS. Right NOw.

I feel that sometimes a product like this comes along, just to force the world to gape in awe, (like I was doing before I read all the info I could get my hands on) and say”wow… the future sure is going to be neato! All hail the future!!!”
But the fact remains, this seems like just an EXPENSIVE UNI BODY DV CAMERA – (Luis) with strange, HD Tumor clinging to it’s neck… lop off the tumor and you have a swollen dvx100a with an untested chipset.

True, can’t be everything to everyone. But it’s like my wife’s little canon dv camera.. it shoots stills and stores it on a chip. It’s got a nice big chip in it that allows her to get pretty big stills… but the dv mechanism will never get more than 720X480 of that big old chip, will it… no. And yet – the camera is sold as a video camera. Not a still camera. It’s the DV camera that makes the sale.

Look – I’m no fan of MPG2 compression, and I certainly don’t want to give any more market share of ANY emerging technology to Sony – I’m just saying… The ability to shoot a respectable amount of footage and manage that media effectively and at a reasonable cost, is more important than having the ability to shoot a couple of minutes of marginally better images. Perhaps I should say that it is more USEFUL to MORE PEOPLE… to have have that ability. And therein lies the rub. A product that can serve more people’s needs will win out, price-point notwithstanding.
And though you might say that because this camera has the kitchen sink in it, it will serve more people – what if the kitchen sink holds only a pint of water before overflowing…. weigh what practical things you get against against the $$ –

Which reminds me… Anyone recommend a copier/fax/scanner/printer? Mine had a failure in the Scanner mechanism, which means no copier, and which leaves me with a sh*itty fax/printer witch requires 50$ in ink cartridges per month, ans still does a mediocre job…

hey wait…. ink cartridges.. expensive refills…. P2 cards..

hmmm… maybe it’s not so dumb after all!

Best,
Matt, So
President, International Whale Blubber Purveyor’s Association.

PS. It’s about a gigbite- per- minute storage space – according to Panasonic’s #s –
that puts the P2 storage thing at about an hour capacity.
That’s 1 DV tape, and you gotta pay someone to transfer those chips that would otherwise be in your camera… which panasonic says takes a minute per gig to transfer. The math just doesn’t work for me…. maybe in a year,,, i dunno.

[Mattso]

Surely we’ll all be using solid state technology in the the future. Yes. Duh. And optical media holds great promise… to be sure. But BluRay is not NOW, neither is affordable solid state media, apparently.
Now is now.
Now, I need a workflow that is practical for many purposes, like oh, say…. tape.
That’s all I’m saying. It’s just a tool thing, not a techno-thing…

M

[Toke]

Yeah, well I wasn’t precise enough what I meant by “now”.
I meant when hvx is shipping.
Before that we don’t need to change anything in our workflow.