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Test of the HPX 2700 now online
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True, but you’re still left with data wrangling at the end of the day. On client shoots, there’s the issue of not having a tape to hand over at the end of the day. When flash-based storage becomes as cheap as tape, in other words when it is no longer necessary to wrangle data off the cards, then tape will no longer be so useful.
Data wrangling is a big issue. I need someone on set or someone fresh at the end of the day. It has to be copied to redundant drives – now we’re talking about taking laptops, drives, power to location. Cases of tape are easier to deal with – especially having shot for 6 weeks in the Galapagos Islands – or more locally, having a producer who wants to catch a 6pm flight back home with a tape in hand.
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Tape still rules for most corporate production. It’s not just the daily hassle of redundant backups, it’s archiving. I use footage for years for my corporate clients. A day doesn’t go by that I don’t get a request for an old shot on file. I can’t see a time when P2 will ever be my medium of choice. I have over 1000 tapes in my library right now. P2 is just not practical for corporate, period.
Ernie Santella
Santella Film/Video Productions
http://www.santellaproductions.com -
[Ernie Santella] “Tape still rules for most corporate production. It’s not just the daily hassle of redundant backups, it’s archiving. I use footage for years for my corporate clients. A day doesn’t go by that I don’t get a request for an old shot on file. I can’t see a time when P2 will ever be my medium of choice. I have over 1000 tapes in my library right now. P2 is just not practical for corporate, period.
Ernie Santella
Santella Film/Video Productions
http://www.santellaproductions.com“Would you say the same “never say never” thing about audio cassettes vs. CDs/iPod for your music? Think about it… 🙂
Noah
My FCP Blog. Unlock the secrets of the DVX100, HVX200 and Apple Color and Win a Free Letus Extreme.
Now featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, DVD Studio Pro and Sound for Film and TV.
https://www.callboxlive.com -
Tape vs. solid-state it’s all just digital data and there are ways to data wrangle if you work to create a sensible workflow. Is it as automated and no-brainer as working with tapes- no but so what. Of course if all of your clients demand tape that’s what you go with. But it’s not going to be that way forever if you have any sense of history. Or when was the last time you bought a movie on VHS vs. DVD?
Noah
My FCP Blog. Unlock the secrets of the DVX100, HVX200 and Apple Color and Win a Free Letus Extreme.
Now featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, DVD Studio Pro and Sound for Film and TV.
https://www.callboxlive.com -
We get your point, Noah.
But I’m pretty sure Panasonic (Japan) doesn’t get ours. If there were a “sensible workflow” for everybody, we would all be on board by now…instead of moaning about it here. It’s not that we don’t get it.
Solid state will happen for doc shooters like me, but a few more pieces have to fall into place before that happens. And by that time, there will be many viable options to Panasonic out there.
It would be very telling to see sales figures for HDX-900 cameras vs. full size P2 cams. I’m sure “robust” could probably be used to describe HDX unit sales.
I know many freelancers like Chris, and most have HDX’s…but would rather have a newer generation of tape-based Varicams. I think Panasonic is missing a opportunity.
J Cummings
DP/Chicago
http://www.cameralogic.tv -
The two analogies posted above are still apples and oranges. I’m not trying to be an ‘old fogy”, I live on the bleeding-edge with gear as much as anyone. (I just purchased some 500/1000w LED lights that just rock!)
“Would you say the same “never say never” thing about audio cassettes vs. CDs/iPod for your music? Think about it…”
All are still ‘hard’ items’ that can be easily stored. You still have a physical CD to store on a shelf. As far as iPOD files, they can be easily lost (computer crash) and then you have to spend time restoring all those files. Time is money.
“Tape vs. solid-state it’s all just digital data”.
“But it’s not going to be that way forever if you have any sense of history. Or when was the last time you bought a movie on VHS vs. DVD?”Another apples/oranges. Sure, digital is different and better than analog, but it’s still the same. You can easily store both VHS and DVD for easy retrieval.
Here’s my reasons why P2 will not work. If anyone can explain how to ‘cost effectively’ use P2, I’m open to any suggestions?
1) Clients request tapes at the end of shoot. (Now, if they can make a P2 drive that can easily mount on the back of a tape-type camera, that would be ideal so you can shoot either!)
2) When I shoot an avg 7-8 tapes a day (without an assistant) who has time to copy files to redundant hard-drives?
3) Cost of overtime for that assistant (If you have one) to copy files. (I’m too damn tired at the end of a 12hr day to deal with file management) I have to still entertain clients with happy, fun customer service.
3) The danger of carrying multiple HD’s. Not to mention, you have to hand-carry all these drives for safely, you can’t possibly pack and ship them, right?
How many things can you carry on airlines? Camera, Briefcase, multiple HD’s/cables? Starts to get pretty crazy.4) The cost of extra baggage (if you are brave enough) for more cases for above HD’s. (Extra baggage is not cheap anymore)
5) Solid State P2 Cards (5-6) are still pretty expensive (at least for the next couple of years)
6) Last and most importantly… Where do you guys store all those files for all your clients? I have about 1000 tapes in my library? That would be ton of HD’s for storage (and redundant B/U drives)
Did I miss something? Sure, when the day comes that they have 500GB or 1TB P2 cards, then, it would be cost effective to copy files that large without supervision. You could just start the file copy and go to dinner or bed. And when the price of HD’s or BD discs get super cheap, that will help too.
Ernie Santella
Santella Film/Video Productions
http://www.santellaproductions.com -
Right exactly- it’s only the capacities that are the issue today not the concept. If DVD-Rs only held 1.44 MB we wouldn’t be using them and yet 20 years ago that was the maximum we had with 3.5″ floppy drives.
My point is this workflow is the future. So pushing it away now is just saving the trouble for later- when everyone else has mastered it and you’re less competitive. Just a suggestion…
Noah
My FCP Blog. Unlock the secrets of the DVX100, HVX200 and Apple Color and Win a Free Letus Extreme.
Now featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, DVD Studio Pro and Sound for Film and TV.
https://www.callboxlive.com -
Let’s not forget that both floppies and DVDs are/were cheap enough to consider them formats not requiring erasure. The data could stay on them indefinitely – not requiring nightly transfers and scrubs. This is the key consideration – for now. Believe me, I know flash memory inside out – a client of ours makes the stuff. If flash gets cheap enough to be like a DVD so that we can record to it and not worry about making dupes to a laptop and sets of redundant drives at the end of each day – then there won’t be the issues that have driven many of us to the HDX-900 or Sony’s XDCam. I think Panasonic is surprised at how many 900s are selling and they’re back-ordered at many resellers.
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“My point is this workflow is the future.”
Not quite correct. It’s just one of many workflows of the future. P2 has many issues: capture capacity, media cost, field convenience, portability, distribution, system compatibility and archiving…all are potentially expensive issues that have to be dealt with. One quick scan of the P2 forum makes it very clear that many people are struggling with one of those issues or another. To a small owner-operator like myself…and most of my broadcast clients–the end users…those issues simply outweigh the benefits, right now.
“So pushing it away now is just saving the trouble for later-“
You mean the inevitable troubles that that all P2 users have to face?
Yes, I can wait on that.“when everyone else has mastered it and you’re less competitive. Just a suggestion…”
Sounds like something a bad Panasonic rep would say, Noah. And it immediately ticked me off.
The inference that any of our concerns with one particular aquisition format will determine our future in the industry is laughable and a just a little insulting. When you cease addressing issues and concerns and instead hurl vague insults at your peers, you start sounding less like a moderator and more like a shill.
Just a suggestion…
J Cummings
DP/Chicago
http://www.cameralogic.tv -
Hi John,
I didn’t see a particular need to go and make it personal there. I was speaking in general terms and you chose to respond by labeling me a shill and/or a Panasonic rep- I’m neither and so sticks and stones etc… 🙂 I feel strongly about these issues too but I didn’t take it down that road, especially with someone I’ve never even met face to face.
My intention, contrary to your inference, was that a tapeless workflow will ultimately be the standard in video whether you as a producer choose to explore it now or in the future. Not to say that’s specifically going to be P2 just in general a tapeless acquisition and post-chain. I’m willing to agree that tape will still be around in some form or another into the near future. Though its prominence will continue to gradually diminish. (Just try to find tape decks in most modern digital post-production audio facilities if you don’t believe it can happen.)
And again- that’s not a slant towards you or an insult or a shill pitch for P2, XDCAM EX, Red, Phantom HD, Silicon Imaging, AVCHD or any of the other current and future tapeless formats and cameras currently in use.
I see your point and I guess there’s nothing more I care to comment about it at this time. I apologize for how my post made you feel- it was not my intention. The good news is we can all revisit this thread in 5, 10 or 15 years and see where we are then in terms of technology and workflow.
Best,
NoahMy FCP Blog. Unlock the secrets of the DVX100, HVX200 and Apple Color and Win a Free Letus Extreme.
Now featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, DVD Studio Pro and Sound for Film and TV.
https://www.callboxlive.com
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