Tapeless workflows

[Craig Seeman]

I archive the EX .MOV file as master. When I do local cable spots I deliver through DGFastchannel (MPEG2 Program Stream) so I have no reason to go back to tape even for broadcast. Everything I do is file delivery now. Those files get archived as masters on optical disk.

Since FCP can save the master as EX MP4 (and MXF for if you’re using non EX XDCAM) I have thought about saving that as the master as the MP4 might be a bit more portable than the MOV variant.

I’m sure long form can still be an issue though but in the long run this is even worse for tape. These are the projects that need the most longevity and having lived through 2″, 1″, D2, etc., These machines to play back these tapes become scarce and the tapes themselves suffer over time. I think in the long run files will be easier to retrieve even as codecs come and go. Retrieving a file in a legacy codec isn’t going to be the ordeal that playing a legacy tape will be.

[Michael Slowe]

Thanks Craig, that sounds like sense. I suppose one might ask how will we play these in 20 years time but I guess a file, is a file, is a file and some version of QT will decipher a .Mov

Michael Slowe

[Mark Raudonis]

[Craig Seeman] “I think in the long run files will be easier to retrieve even as codecs come and go. Retrieving a file in a legacy codec isn’t going to be the ordeal that playing a legacy tape will be. “

Gotta disagree with you here, Craig. We have a show that’s going into it’s 23rd season. As you can imagine, our vault contains quite a few “ancient tape formats”. I can go in there and pull an original beta SP tape, shot in 1991, throw it in a current digibeta machine and still retrieve everything.

In contrast, many of the early “logging files” were done on computers using DOS! When’s the last time you used DOS? Hell, I can’t even find a computer that can open these files. I’m sure if I tried hard enough I could, but don’t underestimate how quick file based formats become unretrievable.

This is going to be a HUGE problem moving forward. I don’t have any answers, but I know that years from now somebody’s going to be making a bunch of money doing archive file recovery/translation.

Mark

[Tim Kolb]

[Rich Rubasch] “I’m trying to get you tapeless guys to admit that having footage on a tape source is WAY safer than any current storage media and that once on tape you can rest easy.”

And I’ll also admit that a CRT is still the best evaluation display

…however we are both running out of time.

I don’t know that any of us are “tapeless guys” because we hate tape and really love our chances with mass-produced portable hard drives.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

[Maurice Jansen]

well guys

don’t forget a few things.
optical disk have a SHORTER time span in losing there data then tape. when not proper stored.
tape is more forgiving in a bad storing place.
i guess only a few have a good conditioned archive down here. don’t forget that when you
are going to archive complete harddisk’s that you are also storing the precise electrical mechanical part of your system.who say that your drive will spin in the good RPM when it has not moved for ages.
not spinnig no data. you have more option’s when a sticky tape comes out of the archive.

next to that we still can playback all our C or even B format tape’s but will you be able to decode XDcam or Proress when we are 20years further i have strong doubt’s.

greet
Maurice

[Craig Seeman]

[maurice jansen] “optical disk have a SHORTER time span in losing there data then tape. when not proper stored. “

You can’t make a blanket statement like that. If you buy well made optical disks such as Taiyo Yuden or Verbatim DataLifePlus they’re rated at 50-100 years (and some say that’s conservative). Don’t buy cr*p from your local office supply store.

[maurice jansen] “tape is more forgiving in a bad storing place. “
Over nearly 30 years I’ve been involved in preservation projects for PBS, Warhol, MLB and can say that tape can deteriorate noticeably even after a few short years in a typical facility environment. Certainly modern BetaSP and DigiBeta will fair better.

My guess is that in 20 years you’ll have an easier time finding something that can read a DVD data file easier than you’ll be able to find a BetaSP deck. A CD made and stored properly in the 1980’s can still be read by any computer. Try that with 1″ tape.

[Maurice Jansen]

hi

You can’t make a blanket statement like that. If you buy well made optical disks such as Taiyo Yuden or Verbatim DataLifePlus they’re rated at 50-100 years (and some say that’s conservative). Don’t buy cr*p from your local office supply store.

sorry i indeed gone a bit fast here i indeed ment the bulk style DVD’s and CD’s
but alot of people i guess also a lot on the forum tto.don’t realise the big differences in quality.
this is of coarse because DVD/CD are also a consumer product. the proffesional tapeformat’s also have quality differences between brand’s but not that big (so more stable in general)

My guess is that in 20 years you’ll have an easier time finding something that can read a DVD data file easier than you’ll be able to find a BetaSP deck. A CD made and stored properly in the 1980’s can still be read by any computer. Try that with 1″ tape.

well i’m dubbing old C/B format tape’s from our archive almost weekly. 90% of them still run properly
only tape’s from the brand “memorex” are sticky sometimes. these tape’s are all stored in a normal room. even the lower quality format’s like Umatic still run. you already say it your self “made and stored properly” but this become’s harder and harder whit IT/Consumer format’s mixing up in proffesional enviroment’s.

that the deck’s will leave us and that all tape’s will become useless “TRUE” but i geuss this is also true
for codec’s and i have a strong feel that these become obsolete much faster.

i am defintly a tapeless enthousiast, but archiving still is a difficult and under estimated issue of tapeless.

greet
Maurice

greet Maurice

[Craig Seeman]

[maurice jansen] “well i’m dubbing old C/B format tape’s from our archive almost weekly. 90% of them still run properly “
10% problem rate is very high actually. I wouldn’t be happy with that. I’ve had a boat load of problems with 1″ tape. Was it Fuji that used that stupid foam padding in which the adhesive broke down after a few years and the foam itself decayed. I’ve seen plenty of flaking oxide and stiction problems.

[maurice jansen] “hese tape’s are all stored in a normal room. even the lower quality format’s like Umatic still run.”
Umatic is nearly as bad as VHS in my experience except maybe its last few years of tape formulations.
I dealt with major history recording on those tapes that were lost forever to crumbling oxide. Both the 1″ and 3/4″ were stored at major post production facilities in properly maintained tape libraries. That’s not an archival situation which should be in temperature/humidity controlled vaults. BTW this was through working at several major post houses so it wasn’t a single incident at a poorly maintained facility.

[maurice jansen] “that the deck’s will leave us and that all tape’s will become useless “TRUE” but i geuss this is also true
for codec’s and i have a strong feel that these become obsolete much faster. “

Codecs might be replaced more quickly than decks but old codec compatibility remains a LOOONG time and they generally require no special hardware (AVOID hardware implemented codecs!). Legacy codecs are much easier to maintain than decks. Look how long Animation has been around and I can still find a way to play Indeo if needed.

[Maurice Jansen]

well

time will tell.
i see all the BIG advantage’s of Filebased workflow. all i want to say is that robust future proof archiving is a bigger challenge then people might think. the point’s i tried to make is that there is more to concern then filetype only. i see people around me archiving on a consumer style harddisk even on big production’s. we got a DVDmaster last month of a project shot with 16camera’s and a big post-production budget delivered on a walmart DVD labeled with a Sharpie. (these things are scary)

i already have seen

[Craig Seeman]

That’s frightening!

If I were the client I’d send it back and tell them to deliver on a professional DVD with proper printed or burned label.

I guess in the next few years we’ll see a lot of companies eatings costs on damaged archives.