Switching from PC to Mac and FCP5 – Still some concerns – please help and advise!

[Enzo Tedeschi]

Steve,

Having not worked with HDV, the only thing I can really offer my two cents on is that the one thing that disappointed me coming from a Canopus system over to Apple’s Production Suite was the MPEG2 encoding.

I have tried all sorts of things, but my DVDs just aren’t up to scratch compared to what Canopus’ software was producing. Even at 8mbps, there are sometimes noticeable artifacts, and strong colours have a weird strobing effect I can’r get rid of. I just finished an Army video, where the troops were all wearing camo (ie dark), running around in the dirt and bush (ie bland), but had bright orange tags on their packs. On my DVD, the orange tags stick out like the proverbials because when they move it almost looks like there are no fields or something.

Anyhow – my one gripe.

Enzo Tedeschi
____________________________
Westbound Sign Productions
Sydney, Australia
http://www.westboundsign.com.au

[Dominic]

My experiences to your questions (others will have other views):

1 Slo-mo seems ok. I use the Timing (or ramping) tool which is the clock that can be selected from the Slip tool from the tool pallet.
2 You can drop DV footage into an HDV project, but the quality is noticeably poor due to the frame size and resolution of DV versus HDV. It will need rendering for output to tape or file. It can be viewed in RT however.
3 Render the lot beforehand
4 Depends on how much RAM you have and the speed of the processor. I’me using a G5 2,5 with 8Gb of RAM (because I’m always using FCP, Motion and DVDSP simultaneously). FCP should be fine as long as you have 2GB of RAM. Motion isn’t always happy with HDV files (Motion can be quite RAM intensive) and crashes a fair bit, even though I allocate it it’s full 4GB.
5 Most of FCP is RT now. Depends on what you are doing. Color correction ect is all fine.
6 Yes you can preview it all full screen.
7 Last bit of advice – thinking of swimming with us Mac fans? Come on in, the water’s lovely…

[Dominic]

Actually yeah – HDV to MPEG2 encoding with Produiction Suite’s Compressor is awful. Compressor 2, supposedly built from scratch, is not much better on SD projects. However when encoding for hi-def DVDs, the settings are fine. Any advice on getting a good HDV to SD MPEG2 anyone?

2.5GHz G5 8Gb RAM, 30″ Studio display.

[Steve To]

Hi Enzo,

thanks for your comments and as you are a previous Canopus user, can you comment on the slow motion in comparison to Canopus? I have a good old Storm DV system and although its hopelessly out of date for HDV use its slomo is superb? Would you say FCP can compare?

What are your (and others) suggestions to MPG2 encoding? I thought Apple’s MPG2 was superb? How can it be that such a well reknowned piece of software can edit but not output such a vital file? Is this common experience?? [worried]

Thanks

Steve

[Gunner Jones]

[Steve DSV] “1. Slow Motion – i hear problems in achieving good smooth slow motion effects.”

In FCP 5, the rendering for all fx including slo-motion is of excellent quality. You can preview the speed fx in RT, but to get good slo-mo, of course, you’ll have to render it out.

[Steve DSV] “basically if i choose a HDV project settings, and dump a single DV file on there is it going to need to render every DV clip or will it cope ok?”

You are talking about two totally different formats, so yes, you’ll have to render one or the other. You’ll get good results in a DV/SD timeline, but if you up-convert DV to HDV, well, that’s gonna look like krapola no matter which system you use. Scaling up DV footage 6x to achieve the same 1080i frame that HDV offers–well, let’s just say, I’d question that workflow in any NLE.

[Steve DSV] “o i have to RENDER any clips that need before outputting to MPEG2 or can this be done during the conversion process?”

The only MPEG2 FCP works with AFAIK is HDV. For that, there is no conversion to get it onto the timeline, but every frame is an I-frame. You finish your show and output to Compressor, and yes, this means encoding back to the GOP based MPEG 2 used for DVD. Fortunately, you can encode to mulitple machines if you’ve got ’em.

[Steve DSV] “will it perform as well with normal DV (4:3 and 16:9) in terms of RT performance as i didn’t get a chance to see this in action?
“
Sure, just get the most powerful Mac and speediest drives you can afford.

[Steve DSV] “How would people class the new dynamic RT performace in ‘real terms'”

I like it a lot, but since I never have touched a PC NLE–I have no comparison to make. It’s certainly an improvement over FCP HD. Typically Dynamic RT is for previewing complex fx, so most every effect you will have to render before outputting. Some items can be played out in RT at full quality, depending on your system.

[Steve DSV] “can i edit in HDV and then play back the timeline to a client in FULL SCREEN to show them demos?
“
Yes, you can use Digital Cinema Desktop to show a full-frame playback. You can also use a capture card to downconvert the HDV signal to play out to a SD monitor in 16:9.

My overall suggestion is to try not compare the two editing environments. Some things are going to be more elegant, some things won’t work as well as “Old Paint Edius”. Just like when folks compare Avid and FCP, there are pluses and minuses on both sides. If you are really concerned that FCP won’t be “as good”, I’d say, just stick with what you know.

O&O-Gunner Productions
FCP-Avid-After Effects

[Steve To]

Firstly thanks for all the comments, much apprecoiated!

I do have a couple of followups, hope you can help…

“The only MPEG2 FCP works with AFAIK is HDV.”

I think i was misunderstood here..What i wanted to know is can i edit and just mark IN/OUT and then export a MPEG2 file direct from the timeline in the background without having to RENDER everything first? ie will export tro MPEG2 do the required rendering as it needs? Is this fast (my current edius pro system does this in about 1.4x real time) In fact how DO i export to MPEG2 (see problem reports below)

“Sure, just get the most powerful Mac and speediest drives you can afford”

will a G5 2.7 Dual and Firewire 800 RAID (prob miglia 500mb raid disks) give me bags of RT? (with 4 or 6gb of RAM)

“can i edit in HDV and then play direct from the timeline on my 23” HD Display to a client in FULL SCREEN to show them demos?

is this OK?

“HDV to MPEG2 encoding with Produiction Suite’s Compressor is awful”
and
“the only thing I can really offer my two cents on is that the one thing that disappointed me coming from a Canopus system over to Apple’s Production Suite was the MPEG2 encoding”

is this really true!! sob!!! how on earth and i going to carry on doing my superb quality dvd’s??!!!

thanks again for the comments – all welcome!!!

GREAT forum!! really fast and informative replies!!!

Steve

[Gunner Jones]

[Steve DSV] “What i wanted to know is can i edit and just mark IN/OUT and then export a MPEG2 file direct from the timeline in the background without having to RENDER everything first?”

Well, I render effects and all that first prior to sending it to Compressor. I’m not sure if that’s necessary or not. It’s my paranoia getting the best of me: I ALWAYS want to check high quality renders before outputting to tape or DVD.

If you want exceedingly high quality encodes using Compressor and Optical Flow 2 Pass VBR, then no, it is not real-time at all. It’s fairly slow actually. Lower quality encodes go faster though, and keep in mind that you can hook up multiple macs to the work for you faster.

[Steve DSV] “will a G5 2.7 Dual and Firewire 800 RAID (prob miglia 500mb raid disks) give me bags of RT? (with 4 or 6gb of RAM)”

I really don’t like FW drives, but if that’s what you’re stuck with, so be it (internal drives are much more reliable). You should get several streams of DV in RT preview/Dynamic. You will have to render these prior to outputting to tape, of course.

[Steve DSV] “is this OK?
“
Looks fine. Even in Dynamic RT, DVCPro HD looks damn fine.

[Steve DSV] “is this really true!! sob!!! how on earth and i going to carry on doing my superb quality dvd’s??!!!
“
Total Bull Hockey. Encodes look awesome. You just need to know how to set up Compressor for high quality. 2 pass VBR with Optical Flow has fantastic quality. As I mentioned though, it’s fairly slow.

O&O-Gunner Productions
FCP-Avid-After Effects

[Steve To]

Thanks Gunner Jones 🙂

You mention: “You just need to know how to set up Compressor for high quality. 2 pass VBR with Optical Flow has fantastic quality. As I mentioned though, it’s fairly slow. “

How slow is slow? For instance how long would a 60min SD DV project take to render as above (2pass VBR Optical) or even say 7mbps CBR (as that’s what i often use right now on the PC and get 1.4x realtime encoding)

Or is ‘slow’ only when talking HDV > MPEG2 conversions? If talking HDV conversion I may actually print it back to the camera in HDV, then recapture the project as downconverted SD and encode from there, or would that result in lower quality MPEG2 and the loss of two hours woth of time in output/re-input? So many options huh!

I assume that these MPEG2’s just import straight into DVD Studio without additonal conversions being needed?

Thanks again, you guys have been superb! [if only Apples own forum had given me such a response]

Steve

[Enzo Tedeschi]

“…can i edit and just mark IN/OUT and then export a MPEG2 file direct from the timeline in the background without having to RENDER everything first?”

The nicest thing about Apple is the workflow. Mark your in/out on the timeline, setup named chapter marks, and export an MPEG2 directly. I have found, though, I get better results if I export a reference file first and encode from that. I recently did a 3 hour concert (in DV), and the reference file only took a couple of minutes to export.

When you import that reference or encode into DVD Studio, it will encode automatically if it needs to, and read the chapter marks – even import the chapter mark names into your menus for you. Very nice little timesaver.

I have found the slo-mo a bit naff, but I wasn’t aware of the clock tool mentioned above, I have just been using the speed setting, which has a terrible inter-field/frame interpolation. Up until now I have been using After Effects for slo-mos. The DVStorm has been one of the best realtime slo-mo systems I have ever used.

As for your encoding options, if you can’t get Compressor up to scratch (I’ll have to give the optical flow setup sugested above another crack), you could always encode on your pc and bring files across – Procoder still has the sharpest and truest MPEG2s I’ve seen (others may disagree). Otherwise there are 3rd party encoders like BitVice for the Mac which will also do a good job. You can download a demo and sample encodes from the Innobits website: http://www.innobits.se

Good to see this as a lively topic!

Enzo Tedeschi
____________________________
Westbound Sign Productions
Sydney, Australia
http://www.westboundsign.com.au

[Steve To]

Hi Enzo,

thanks for that 🙂

You say i could encode on my DV Storm card? how would i do that in SD? Would i export ehe final project as an avi and load that into ProCoder? I’m not sure i understand that?

It seems the only part i’m REALLY being let down on is Slow Motion and as i use it in every project i’m having second thoughts on the Apple solution! Even re-considering the Edius Pro NX and a Dual Xeon option even though much more expensive!

I only wish folk would tell me there IS a fabby slow mo solution in FCP that is RT, but doesn;t seem to be so!

Thanks again all and keep the comments coming!

Steve