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Suggestions for upgrades to speed up FCP Rendering? Or get Shake and use Qmaster?
So here’s some background… I recently completed a green-screen-heavy project using Final Cut and Red Giant’s Primatte Keyer Pro (which is my new favorite plug-in… the keys were practically flawless, and took almost no time to set up – highly recommended). So, I had a 4-minute piece that had a background layer, then a layer that served as a “picture-in-picture” (which, itself was a nested sequence) then the subject (ProRes 1440x1080p23.98 with background keyed out), and titles on top of that.
The 4-minute piece took 2 1/2 hours to render each time I needed to output it. I’m using a Mac Pro, and unfortunately I’m not at it right now to give the exact specs. But, given the idea that there could be something (or a combination of things) that would benefit any Mac Pro:
What upgrades could be made to my machine to make Final Cut Pro, and specifically FCP with clips using Primate Keyer Pro, render faster?
A better graphics card? More RAM? Something like AJA’s Kona card that offers “hardware acceleration?” Something else?
The idea of using Qmaster to distribute rendering was fantastic, however (obviously) FCP can’t take advantage of that… We have 3 Mac Pros on a network. If we got Shake, would being able to utilize Qmaster speed this sort of thing up (keying using Primatte in Shake rather than in FCP)?
And if we were, would there be any hardware upgrades that would benefit both Shake and FCP?
Thanks for your time, all! I appreciate it!
Nick
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18 Replies
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This is not the king of job I normally do, but..
If the Giant keyer is GPU based, a better Graphic card will help you.
But why don’t you export your subject with the Alpha as self contained?
You won’t loose time render that effect whenever you want to make a change in theb ackground.
If you are working in 10b you will need a codec that support 10b (Sheer or Avid).
Shake can be a solution with the recent (today) upgrade. Now can work in 10b (at last).
Cheers,
Rafael -
[Osiri Sioux] “The 4-minute piece took 2 1/2 hours to render each time I needed to output it.”
I have to ask… Why are your rendering every time you output? You should render your sequences fully before outputting.
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Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
https://web.mac.com/schazamproductions
schazamproductions@mac.com -
I have no patience with kids looking for speedier renders. You have no idea how good you have it these days. The path to improved render speeds is always planning but it’s not necessarily always hardware.
when After Effects was in v2, we learned to prerender everything and to carefully plan our workflows to use draft mode for everything until it was cleared for final.
bogiesan
This is my standard sigfile so do not take it personally: “For crying out loud, read the freakin’ manual.”
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[david bogie] “I have no patience with kids looking for speedier renders. You have no idea how good you have it these days.”
David,
When I started in this business, computer graphics had just begun by the pioneering Bob Abel. Using a Cray super computer as big as a room, it took him 24-hours to render a single frame.
Yes Grasshopper, that will teach you patience…
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los AngelesPOST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™
A forum host of Creative COW’s Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
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Rafael, thanks for crafting a thoughtful and helpful response. I’ll look into the GPU question and for the next project I’ll see if I can work it so that the green screen track is rendered separately and then put back in with the alpha.
Wayne, I think I might have not explained myself correctly, but I was rendering the sequence fully before outputting.
Anyone else that has something constructive to add, I appreciate your input! Thanks!
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Where is your media located? Ext. drives, internal drives? One thing that could help tremendously (a bit pricey) is installing an internal RAID drive in your MacPro, or even working from an external RAID drive. If your media is there, and you set your Render Files scratch there, your renders will speed up quite a bit.
-cody
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Now, I’m looking for a solution, as well. I cut my editing teeth using big 1-inch decks with analog synchronizers, and REAL A-B rolls with a mixer, using long editing lists with hand-written instructions. No automated system existed yet for what I wanted to do! Talk about planning! It gave me an appreciation for what I have, but I STILL want more speed. My first non-linear editing was with the Avid Xpress Elite – it cost $80,000, but I had real-time output all the time.
What we’re looking for here is faster rendering on what we have NOW, and possibly NOT having to render with only 4 layered video tracks, eh?
I’m what you’d call a “power user,” and I research things to death… that’s part of what I’m doing now, so I don’t want to hear any responses like “wow, you’re sure stupid for not doing your research before asking for help!”
I’m doing my research. Apple seems not to be a lot of help, the manual doesn’t offer ANY suggestions, and I’m not prepared to spend ANOTHER $2K for yet another RAID card in this new Mac Pro. I’m using a 2.8GHz quad-core Xeon MacPro with 10GB of RAM, an external 1.4TB RAID 0, and another 1 TB of internal drive storeage. I’m waiting for my 2 new fast internal 1 TB drives that I’ll format as a software RAID.
The faster video card I just bought seems to have little effect… so… Anyone know more than me about this issue? WILL the Mac Pro RAID Card make a BIG difference? If the CPU is the issue, getting a Quad Pro should seem significantly faster than my dual G5, no? It doesn’t. What gives?
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[David McClave] “What we’re looking for here is faster rendering on what we have NOW, and possibly NOT having to render with only 4 layered video tracks, eh? “
What four video tracks? DV? DVCPro? Uncompressed SD? Uncompressed HD? All but uncompressed HD are easily achieved now with the proper storage array for editing. But pretty much everything has to be rendered before laying to tape.
But there is a really neat article in the latest COW magazine about how Digital Film Tree is using clustered rendering to make Color render faster. I’m going to look into this and see if we can’t replicate their method here.
[David McClave] “The faster video card I just bought seems to have little effect… so… Anyone know more than me about this issue? WILL the Mac Pro RAID Card make a BIG difference? If the CPU is the issue, getting a Quad Pro should seem significantly faster than my dual G5, no? It doesn’t. What gives?”
The card alone doesn’t do it, the array does the high speed. If I’m reading correctly, you have two drives striped externally and you’ll have two drives striped internally? You want an external array of 5 to 8 (or more) drives to get real speed and power from FCP. We currently run 8bay (8TB) external SAS/SATA arrays to get 500MB/s and more from our arrays and I’m stepping up to 12 bay arrays that are rated for 800MB/s and faster in the next few months. And they can be expanded out to 128 drives if I ever needed that type of capacity.
So if you want more realtime, you need a really REALLY fast array with a lot of overhead. So if you require 2TB of storage to do your editing, make sure you have a 4 to 5 TB array. Mixing and matching internal and external arrays for more room is not the best solution for increased speed.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
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Dude….
I can feel for you. I’m from the same era but I cut my teeth in a small rural PBS station… Can you say NO budgets?
[David McClave] “I’m what you’d call a “power user,” and I research things to death… that’s part of what I’m doing now, so I don’t want to hear any responses like “wow, you’re sure stupid for not doing your research before asking for help!”
I’m doing my research. Apple seems not to be a lot of help, the manual doesn’t offer ANY suggestions, and I’m not prepared to spend ANOTHER $2K for yet another RAID card in this new Mac Pro. I’m using a 2.8GHz quad-core Xeon MacPro with 10GB of RAM, an external 1.4TB RAID 0, and another 1 TB of internal drive storeage. I’m waiting for my 2 new fast internal 1 TB drives that I’ll format as a software RAID.
The faster video card I just bought seems to have little effect… so… Anyone know more than me about this issue? WILL the Mac Pro RAID Card make a BIG difference? If the CPU is the issue, getting a Quad Pro should seem significantly faster than my dual G5, no? It doesn’t. What gives?”
I can fee your pain on this also. BUT… I can help you here. There is one thing missed by everyone out here when it comes to the Mac Pro systems and FCP – Memory! You mention that you have 10 gig of RAM. Well, that’s a serious problem for FCP. Apple does have a tech doc on this but I’m not on my edit system so I can’t forward you the address.
If you take out the 2 gig of RAM that you got with your system and place all your memory symmetrically across your memory risers, your FCP performance will be unbelievably faster. Let me explain, place a pair of matching memory bars in riser A and the same size in riser B – keep doing this until you reach you 8 gig. I assume that you have 4 – 2 gig memory bars. Take out all of the memory, place two of the 2 gig bars in the front of riser A, then place the remaining 2 gig bars in the front of riser B. That’s it.
For some unknown reason, FCP likes your memory to be in multiples of 4. It will also work with 2 gig but with an Octocore the optimal memory size if 8 gig.
Give that a try…
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Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
https://web.mac.com/schazamproductions
schazamproductions@mac.com -
OooooooohKay!
Walter and Wayne hit the nail on the head with this one. Of all the answers submitted, these guys actually offered real solutions instead of criticism…. and what d’ya know? REAL SOLUTIONS! The memory thing REALLY surprised me. I just did it… rendered a trouble spot for me, and it was twice as fast! WOW!!!
I will start collecting identical drives for a fast external SATA array, unless someone knows of a better solution I can swallow for less than $250 per chunk.
Is an external enclosure that supports 4+ bays and uses the eSATA connection better, or a RAID card that connects with a multi-channel cable?
I’ve built plenty of SCSI arrays, and even have a few laying around, (they’re all 10GB drives, though), so I’m familiar with the concept and THAT old technology… I’ve been reading up on SAS, and from what I read, the Mac Pro card is SAS AND SATA? True?
Thankls to Walter and Wayne for the straight forward answers!
-Dave
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