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Sony XDcam PDW-F350 or Panasonic HPX500
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wow, that’s a pretty strong story..
It does raise some very good points to me though.
Thanks a lot, this really helped me.
PeterPeter Dorr
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[Nigel Cooper] “Jan, have you ever filmed and complete a production of any kind with ANY camera, or do you spend your life reading tec specs?.”
As a matter of fact I ahave been the producer on a number of projects, and I have worked with a number of filmmakers over the years. I have been in this business for well over 35 years. I am not dissing you. I am only challenging what you put out there as fact, and there are issues with what you are putting out there.
[Nigel Cooper] “Fact is, MPEG Long GoP has one uncompressed frame to relate to, DVCPROHD compresses EVERY frame in a similar way to how JPEG works with photos. Swings and roundabouts.”
That one frame takes about 1/3 of the bit budget, leaving the other 14 frames to divide up the remainder. It is the other 14 frames that are dependent on the previous frame that is the problem. That is the difference in Long GOP Mpeg and DVCPRO HD. Only the changes are recorded from frame to frame in MPEG. If there are more changes that what the algorithm can muster, it falls down. This means that the bit budget cannot handle all of the changes. When working with an I-frame codec,this is not an issue.
[Nigel Cooper] “I’m not going to be drawn into a stupid technical argument with you, I’m sure you have every Panny white paper committed to memory and can quote me all sorts of technical crap that just doesn’t concern me in the least. .”
Oh, please. I only pointed out the silliness of your claim that Panasonic didn’t do MPEG because we couldn’t do it as well as Sony, That was the dumb technical argument.
[Nigel Cooper] “EVERY I-Frame is compressed. Both Intraframe, Interframe and Long GoP are all compressed, they just do it differently; personally I don’t care about the scientifics unless I can see it in the picture and with pixel-shifting I can most definitely see it on a HD monitor; soft, soft, soft. .”
Frankly I could show you how the Long GOP can affect your picture, we did that demo at NAB this past year. Your perception of the HPX500 can be influenced by a number of things. It can depend on the glass being used and the monitor in question. But I did not say that the HPX500 had the same resolution as the 1/2″ Sony. I think I was pretty careful in saying just the opposite. My point was that resolution specs do not tell the entire story.
[Nigel Cooper] “AVC-Intra can’t hold up to being compressed/de-compressed 3 times in post. I know people who have done it and it can’t handle being shredded like XDCAM’s MPEG can. .”
Really, and how would that be true when the AVC-Intra card has not even been released? Perhaps you are thinking of AVCHD? Different algorithm.
[Jan Crittenden Livingston] “”you will have to work a lot harder with the lighting kit to make it happen on the 1/2″ over the 2/3″.”
[Nigel Cooper] “So the above quote would mean a HVX200 is pretty much useless for independent low budget filmmakers then? .”
No, it actually means the same thing, the folks that work with any of the 1/3″ cameras, not just the HVX, do have to work at getting more light in front of the camera. This is a known scenario.
[Nigel Cooper] “Hmmm, nice and technical again. Doesn’t mean jack to me Jan, I’m concerned with what the picture ‘Looks’ like on a HD monitor and don’t really go by manufactures inaccurate quotes and technical babble; not even Sony’s. .”
Well if you are interested in how it looks then you should look at it, because from what you are saying, it seems to me that you really have not looked at it.
[Nigel Cooper] “Just goes to prove that you have never completed a production. This is rubbish, the Fujinon XS17x5.5BRM is virtually indistinguishable against Canon half-inchers costing twice the price. I’ve compared all Canon and all Fujinon half-inchers for XDCAM HD. .”
This does not prove anything of the sort, it does say something about where you are coming from however. If you think that the cheap $5000 lens looks as good as the $20,000 lens, well there you go. I happen not to agree. I can see a difference in the $5000 lens versus the $10,000. In fact I can see the difference between the $8000 Fujinon 2/3″ vs the $10,000 Canon 2/3″.
[Nigel Cooper] “I owned the cheap HVX200 consumer camera for just 1 month before ditching it for reasons of image quality and expensive and destructive P2 workflow. .”
Perhaps you had destructive workflow issues because you were unfamiliar with working the workflow. But I can assure you that with a project as big as the Iditarod, with over 140 hours of P2 workflow capture and editing, we didn’t lose a clip or a card. And that is only the very tippy-top of the iceberg of work that has been done on P2 and it is indeed a very reliable workflow.
[Nigel Cooper] “I looked long and hard at Panny tape-based cameras before going for XDCAM HD. PDW-F350 suits most of my personal needs at this moment in time. This camera covers a wide spectrum from corporate, informercials, weddings, TV work and much more. And it is relatively cheap too with a workflow that, just works perfectly. .”
Actually in reality the XDCAM HD workflow on a minute to minute basis is more expensive than tape. I am not saying it doesn’t work for you, I am just saying that in comparison to a tape workflow, it is very similar and it costs more than tape.
[Nigel Cooper] “The bane of Panny products is still the dated, obsolete and expensive P2 workflow that simply won’t be around come 2009. Even Panasonic Japan know darn well that they will be announcing the replacement for P2 at NAB 2009. .”
Here you have the right to your opinion, but the reality that it is not true. I was in product discussions yesterday with Panasonic Japan where indeed we were planning P2 cameras and products that would deliver in 2009.
[Nigel Cooper] “Old serial/slow/unreliable P2 technology simply can’t survive in today’s world. How Panasonic call it the ‘IT’ workflow is a joke and ironic considering the IT industry has left PC-Card technology behind and moved onto the faster, more reliable, cheaper, more future proof ExpressCard technology. .”
This is hilarious. The PCMCIA slot is still on the PC laptops and the brand new computer 2 weeks ago still has a PCMCIA slot. But the argument here is moot. Show me the PC that has the XDCAM Disk built in? You point to the Express card camera, which basically reinforces what we have said all along, solid state is the way to go, no moving parts. And in fact we are not the only ones that call it an IT workflow, even Microsoft in their NAB presentation 2 years ago called it an IT workflow. It is IT because it is a file based system that can be managed just like Microsoft word documents and that can happen the minute that I have the card read by the computer. It can edit directly off of the card, and the files can be managed by meta-data, yes; it is indeed an IT workflow.
[Nigel Cooper] “Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t Panasonic the only company on the planet that use PC-Card technology now? .”
Not really. The Duel-Systems adapter brings the PCMCIA card slot technology to those computers that no longer have a PCMCIA slot. And you can order certain computer with it. There is no need for further development whichis what the PCMCIA commeittee stated. It is not a dead technology, it is totally viable. I have a number of PCMCIA slot devices that rely on it, including my Flash card reader.
[Nigel Cooper] “And I see the CinePorter got canned due to lack of interest. Personally I think it is because they know they would probably only sell a few hundred. .”
While I would leave it to the Spec-Comm folks to say why they abandoned the project, my gut level says that that with the 16GB and the 32GB card being delivered this year and the 64GB card next year, your assessment might be right. Why rely on spinning disk technology when solid state is so much more of a sure thing?
[Nigel Cooper] “And aren’t Panasonic the only company on the planet making P2 cards? . “
And isn’t Sony the only company making XDCAM HD disks? This is a silly argument. Right now I know that there are two other companies that are trying to make them, but it isn’t all that easy, it is more than flash memory.
[Nigel Cooper] “There is a good reason Kodak, Lexar, Sandis, Fuji etc etc won’t EVER make P2 cards. Because they won’t sell many, just one to each end user. They won’t spend millions of dollars setting up production lines just to sell a few hundred thousand dollars worth of P2 cards. If P2 cards stick around that long anyway. .”
Well unlike the Disk technologies or even tape, you don’t need thousands of cards, each camera only needs a handful, so there really wouldn’t need to be a lot of manufacturers making cards.
[Nigel Cooper] “Panasonic committed to P2 for just 6 years, 4 of them are up, just 2 to go. Bye Bye P2, you’re days are numbered and anyone who thinks otherwise, well check back in 2009 and I’ll accept your apologies. .”
This is silly. You act as though you have some special secret knowledge and there is no truth to what you say. You too can offer your apology in a couple of years because what you will see is that the P2 will continue to grow in size and there will be more cameras and devices that will capitalize on it.
Best regards,
Jan
Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems -
For the record I thought the 500 was a nice camera. Just those niggles that I mentioned in my other posts put me off it.
At this price range there will always be compromises. At this level (the 500 and 350) there isn’t really a ‘better’ camera. Just differences.
My main issues with the 500 are the way that it needs to go into a different mode for clip manipulation. Jan, you should consider adding a quick clip delete function and a way of skipping through the clips without having to go into this different mode. I’d also implore you to add a colour matrix adjustment. There are cameras costing much less that have this function, and on this type of camera I know I’m not the only one that thinks it is essential.
Shoulder pad adjustment is also something that needs to be added. It might even need a bit more than is usual because of the light weight of the body.
The P2 thing I could care less about, mainly because anything that can be said about the differences between the workflow systems has already been said.
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” Only the changes are recorded from frame to frame in MPEG.”
And the problem is? it works with meta-data and keeps a record of what is the same and what isn’t. I’ve never witnessed (and don’t know anyone who has) an issue with there being more changes than the algorithm can muster.
“When working with an I-frame codec,this is not an issue.”
Ah, but it is an issue, and it can be even worse. As I’ve mentioned, every single frame is shredded with DVCPROHD I-Frame, which is like a still JPEG photo. So the effects can be worse here, don’t be under any illusion Jan, I’ve seen it on many occasions. I still shoot on I-Frame camcorders.
“Oh, please. I only pointed out the silliness of your claim that Panasonic didn’t do MPEG because we couldn’t do it as well as Sony, That was the dumb technical argument.”
Not dumb. Check with Panny Japan, they have played around with MPEG2 in the past; to no avail.
“My point was that resolution specs do not tell the entire story.”
I agree.
“$5000 lens versus the $10,000. In fact I can see the difference between the $8000 Fujinon 2/3″ vs the $10,000 Canon 2/3″.”
I’m talking about two specific lenses and I’ve seen them as I was going to buy one over the other; fact.
“Perhaps you had destructive workflow issues because you were unfamiliar with working the workflow. But I can assure you that with a project as big as the Iditarod, with over 140 hours of P2 workflow capture and editing, we didn’t lose a clip or a card. And that is only the very tippy-top of the iceberg of work that has been done on P2 and it is indeed a very reliable workflow.”
I totally understand the workflow, shoot P2, dump to laptop or P2 store, edit, then archive to domestic Blu-Ray DVDs or DLT? what a joke.
As for Iditarod, is that all you’ve got, Sony did Iditarod on XDCAM HD the year before. If P2 is so tough, why did Panny UK refuse to let me do some of my special tests on it, when Sony were happy for me to test XDCAM HD discs by freezing them in water in the freezer, then thawing them out in the microwave and putting them through a dishwasher; oh, all clips were fine by the way. Panasonic UK refused my offer to test P2 cards to the same degree and said there were not designed to take such punishment. Well you could quite easily drop a P2 card in the snow, or in a river, or a hot volcanic fountain on a shoot; surely?
“Actually in reality the XDCAM HD workflow on a minute to minute basis is more expensive than tape. I am not saying it doesn’t work for you, I am just saying that in comparison to a tape workflow, it is very similar and it costs more than tape.”
Rubish, unless you are comparing to mini-dv tape. Comparing to Digibeta it is slightly less, and much less than HDCAM.
How does P2 fair up to the tape pricing these days?
Oh, and please don’t tell me you can re-use a P2 card thousands of times. XDCAM Discs cost $15 and can be re-used 10,000 times and played back over a million times.
“Here you have the right to your opinion, but the reality that it is not true. I was in product discussions yesterday with Panasonic Japan where indeed we were planning P2 cameras and products that would deliver in 2009.”
If this is the case, Panny are going down. As for the rest of my IT/P2 ramblings; all true. The IT industry does NOT support PC-Cards anymore, they are tooo slow and twitchy, this is why everyone (except Panny) have moved on.
“The PCMCIA slot is still on the PC laptops and the brand new computer 2 weeks ago still has a PCMCIA slot.”
Yeah, what brand, some cheap Chinese copy/unknown as they don’t know any better.
Check out MacBook Pros and Vaio’s, Dells etc. Not a PC Card slot in sight. Unless it is old stock. Check out the DVinfo forums, HVX200 guys buying up 2 year old MacBook’s like no tomorrow as they have PC Card slots on them.
“Show me the PC that has the XDCAM Disk built in?”
Don’t have to because I can record 65 minutes of glorious HD 1080×1440 footage onto a disc. I don’t have to dump, I simply put in another CHEAP disc and continue recording. P2 users need it as they can’t afford to buy 15 x 16GB cards to stick in their pocket.
“Microsoft in their NAB presentation 2 years ago called it an IT workflow.”
Ha, Microsoft eh, says it all. Biggest is not the best.
When Sony’s EX series come out over the next 2 years I just hope they have superb error correction built in like the current XDCAM HD does; or they will also suffer like Panasonic have.
“It can edit directly off of the card, and the files can be managed by meta-data, yes; it is indeed an IT workflow.”
So is XDCAM HD.
“The Duel-Systems adapter brings the PCMCIA card slot technology to those computers that no longer have a PCMCIA slot.”
Ah, a dodgy workaround fix, just until P2 dies in a few years time.
“There is no need for further development whichis what the PCMCIA commeittee stated. It is not a dead technology, it is totally viable.”
They said the same thing about floppy discs when CD drives came out.
“Why rely on spinning disk technology when solid state is so much more of a sure thing?”
Is it, I’ve never heard of a corrupt clip on XD, EVER. Nor have I heard of my XD disc being wiped whilst dumping it to an in-the-field device like a P2 store, then locking up and losing everything. This is quite common with P2 store according to the regular forums.
“And isn’t Sony the only company making XDCAM HD disks?”
No not actually, Sony, TDK, Maxell and Fuji all make XDCAM HD discs, why? because they are selling millions of the things and making a killing on them. Because they are cheap, people use them like tape, shoot to disc, edit, stick disc on shelf; end of story.
This will never happen with P2. As for Sony’s new SxS cards, not only will Sandis make them, but so will Fuji, Sandisk and many others. Cheap, Cheap, Cheap and even Cheaper.
Buy the time 64GB P2 cards come out, there will be 128GB SxS cards for $79.
With P2 you are heading into the dark ages I’m afraid.
“Right now I know that there are two other companies that are trying to make them, but it isn’t all that easy, it is more than flash memory”
Wrong, seed above, Fuji, TDK, Maxell, check there web sites for XDCAM HD discs, they have been making them for a year already and they are WAYYYYYYY cheaper to make than flash memory. It is based on Blu-Ray technology, which these companies already have in place. Keep digging Jan, you’ll reach Australia soon.
“Well unlike the Disk technologies or even tape, you don’t need thousands of cards, each camera only needs a handful, so there really wouldn’t need to be a lot of manufacturers making cards.”
When Sony’s first EX series camera comes out in November/December, I’d bet my bottom dollar that by the middle of next year there are at least 3 manufactures making SxS cards. In fact I guarantee it. In fact there are already 2 companies making them.
“You act as though you have some special secret knowledge”
I do 😉
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Peter,
With such a panorama I think is time to wait.
Rafael -
[Nigel Cooper] “Peter, you are being fed some wrong information here.
Why oh why do people insist that the DVCPRO100 codec is better than the MPEG2 codec; this is total rubish. For your information John, DVCPRO100 DOES NOT record at 100Mbps, it is closer to 48Mbps, read up and learn. Besides, XDCAM HDs35Mbps is more like 100Mbps due to the fact that the MPEG codec is sooooooooo much more efficient”
Because it is better when 4:2:0 compressed 35Mbps.Just better.
[Nigel Cooper] “2/3rd lenses won’t cost you any more really, Canon just brought out a new range that are only a tiny fraction more than half inch so no argument there either.”
Where do you get extra wide lens under US$10,000 like Fujinon 3.3×13??two things to mention here:
HVX-202 is the best small camera on the market and at last Sony woke up and is comming on the market with EX.
Secondly if somebody is shooting SD,they will get better results with decent SD cameras like Pana900 or later versions of Digi Beta Cameras.I do not like much Downconverted image from HD to SD(especially skin tones) from average HD camcorders. -
I was going to respond to this thread in general, but Nigel, your previous response sums up my feelings better than I could have written.
I too owned the HVX200 and couldn’t get past the P2 workflow and the prosumer feel of the camera.
I now own a Sony 350 and have been, on the most part, satisfied. It’s not a 900 or a Varicam, but for the price it just can’t be beat (IMHO). I’ve worked in this business for 25 years now starting with film, moving to Betacam and others inbetween, and ending up with XDCAM HD. To date I’ve shot docus in very low light conditions, long form corporate video and entertainment based programming with my 350. Probably over 100 hours so far…
While my workflow in FCP isn’t perfect, I’ve never had a problem with the discs and the images are truly astounding. Call me a believer.
That being said, the bottom line for any camera purchase should be a thorough test. Buy the camera that looks best and works best for you within your budget. If I were in a larger market or had clients needing a higher end finish, I would be looking at other cameras.
Regards,
Ben Kupfer -
The one aspect of the Sony HD Cam that I did not care for was how the camera ‘stuttered’ in 24 frame mode. Some DP’s refer to this as “mosquito”. I too am shopping for an HD solution. It seems the workflow for the P2 is dump the card through a laptop onto a firewire drive, later tranferring the files to RAID and than perhaps safety archive on a backup RAID or firewire drive.
The Sony system requires a PDW-F30 or a PDWV1 player to transfer the files to NLE. I’m I correct on this? The $9,500 list for the player is pause for concern. When I first heard about this system a couple years back I naively thought I could transfer the files in an inexpensive disk reader of some sort.
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Tim,
You just don’t need any extra player. Simply plug your F330 or F350 on FAM mode to your NLE with a firewire cable, and you’re done. Faster than real time. As simple as that!
The Sony XDCAM transfert plug-in is required (free) for FCP.Yves Chauvel
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Yves,
I agree that using the camera as a source deck is possible. Since the Sony is mechnical with it’s optic drive, wouldn’t this put added hours (wear and tare) on the camera?
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