Sony EX1 versus the Panasonic HVX200

[Kerry Brown]

Check out this link.
https://www.dvxuser.com/V6/forumdisplay.php?f=124

KB

[Pekin Azer]

The EX1 has a very low data rate… 35mbit/s but, P2 is 100 mbit/s..

That should give an idea… i gues the 35 mbit has the mpg2 compression just like HDV….

i think keying blue/green screen with EX1 would be very difficult….

Also Panasonic gives 4:2:2 color sampling…

P.

[Dan Brockett]

Hi Peter:

Tons of this discussion over at DVX User but as a summary

Sony EX-1 – positives
1/2″ CMOS imager gives shallower depth of field than HVX’s 1/3″ CCDs
EX-1 seems to have less noise at higher gain levels
EX-1 image has been perceived as sharper
Real manual iris ring
Lower data rates mean longer shoot times on same size storage cards
Outstanding quality LCD screen

Sony EX-1 – negatives
CMOS imager has significant rolling shutter artifacts
35mbps format is much lower data rate than DVCProHD and less color sampling than HVX
Maximum size on SxS cards is presently 16GB vs. 32GB P2 cards
Some viewers/users report that camera loses significant sharpness and detail when camera is moving. (sharp when stationary, then blurry when panned or tilted)
Horrendously bad ergonomics
General consensus is that EX-1 produces more video-like images (may or may not be a negative for you?)
More expensive than HVX by 20-30%
Audio quality is unknown at this time. All past Sony sub-$10k cameras have had audio quality ranging from poor (Z1u) to unusable for professional quality work (VX and PD series)

Panasonic HVX-200 – positives
Excellent image quality in normal to good lighting
Very filmic image
100mbps 4:2:2 color sampling, great for green screen and compositing
Relatively low cost
Excellent audio quality
Image remains consistent whether moving or stationary
Good lens for fixed lens camera
Acknowledged great colorimetry

Panasonic HVX-200 – negatives
Camera is rated ASA 320. Not good images in low light
Noisier picture than EX-1
Softer picture than EX-1
Terrible LCD screen
Better ergonomics than EX-1 but still clunky
Shorter run times per P2 card of same size as SxS

FWIW, I own an HVX. I love the camera, it’s a great tool. The new Sony seems nice at first blush, but when you delve deep into it, there are some fundamental limitations to the camera that may or may not be deal breakers for your needs. I have see some excellent footage from both cams so it just depends on your preference. You won’t go wrong with either but it does boil down to what your needs are.

Best,

Dan

Providing value added material to all of your favorite DVDs

[Dean Sensui]

To add to Dan’s list, the power switch is terrible and there’s a risk of leaving the camera turned on.

Even if you turn it off, there are reports of the battery being significantly drained when left overnight on the camera.

To rebut some of the negative points made, and please note that I currently own an HVX:

“CMOS imager has significant rolling shutter artifacts”

I did some testing with it but only noticed significant leaning of vertical elements if the camera was panned quickly. In that case I probably would not have used the shot.

“35mbps format is much lower data rate than DVCProHD and less color sampling than HVX”

Data rates for different codecs don’t always proportionately translate into image quality. A good example is RedCode. It’s twice as much data as the HVX, yet the image is at least 4 times larger and the pixel depth is enough to cover the entire raw image spectrum. Quality is superb. So the compression of RedCode is higher than the HVX yet without quality loss. Similarly, the compression of the EX1 is higher, yet there doesn’t seem to be any significant quality loss.

“Maximum size on SxS cards is presently 16GB vs. 32GB P2 cards”

A 16-gig card on an EX1 gives you 50 minutes of 1080p30 compared to 16 minutes of the same frame size and rate on an HVX.

“Some viewers/users report that camera loses significant sharpness and detail when camera is moving. (sharp when stationary, then blurry when panned or tilted)”

This has been tested extensively by some very knowledgeable people at another discussion forum and it seems to be an unfounded concern.

“Horrendously bad ergonomics”

Yep. But it’s been suggested to use the camera in conjunction with a shoulder mount. Any camera this size is bound to be klutzy. I found the tiltable handle a nice touch. It lets the user get the handle to match one’s natural wrist angle, especially if it’s used with a shoulder mount.

“General consensus is that EX-1 produces more video-like images (may or may not be a negative for you?)”

A report from a gathering of ASC members seems to indicate that everyone there was impressed by the image quality of the EX1. This was posted at a discussion forum normally frequented by HVX users. I’m not sure exactly what some people mean by video-like quality. Could be cadence of the motion. Could be burned out highlights. Or excessive sharpening. All of these can be dealt with by the EX1 or the HVX.

Also, with the larger chips the EX1 provides a little better control over the depth-of-field than the HVX.

It’s a very nice camera but it’s far from perfect.
Hope this helps.

Dean Sensui — Imagination Media Hawaii

[Dan Brockett]

Dean:

Thanks for your input, as an owner, you have had far more experience with the camera than I have.

The rolling shutter artifacts have actually turned out to be more of an issue when photographing flashes and strobes, I have seen several clips and stills that show a very unnatural “tearing” effect when exposing strobe flashes (for instance, at a wedding reception).

I found in my testing that if you shoot any kind of racing or other high speed sports, the rolling shutter artifacts can be quite distracting. I did shoot a documentary on the Japanese sport of Drifting a few years ago. In a situation like this, with photographing constant high speed pans, based upon what i exprienced with the EX-1, it would have been a detriment. Like everything else, it depends on what you shoot and how high your sensitivity for visual distortion is.

While yes, the EX-1 produces nice images, to me, the fact that it is a 4:2:0 35mbps signal means that the images cannot be as robust in compositing and in pulling keys as the 4:2:2 100 mbps signal from DVCProHD.

Remember, I wrote this list merely as a summary.

All my best,

Dan

Providing value added material to all of your favorite DVDs

[Dean Sensui]

Dan…

I own an HVX and so far only had a chance to test the EX1 for a day. So I’m not an EX1 owner — yet. 🙂

The part about high speed tracking pans possibly being distracting is a possibility. Something else worth testing to see how bad it is. The next time I get my hands on an EX1 I’ll give it a try.

The compositing issue is another one to test. Some have conjectured that although the sampling rate is lower the detail level is higher. So edge artifacts are more or less on par with the HVX.

I do a lot of compositing work and know the HVX can do a very nice job. I’ll have to test the EX1 and see if it can do as well. Another issue brought up elsewhere is that trackers will be distorted by the rolling shutter if the camera is moved quickly enough, and that’s true. However, even with that there might be a work-around. With compositing, there’s always some sort of problem that has to be dealt with. It’s not as automatic as we wished it were. And, boy, we do some heavy wishing with some shots! 🙂

Dean Sensui — Imagination Media Hawaii

[Rennie Klymyk]

You’re also getting t/c and gen lock for the extra $2500.00.

“everything is broken” ……1st. coined by Esther Philips I believe.

[Rennie Klymyk]

[Dean Sensui] ” I’m not sure exactly what some people mean by video-like quality.”

I’ve never been near an EX1 but Mariusz Cichon posted some shots of a resolution chart here:

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/193/868784

He took the time to align the cameras sufficiently. If you take one small group of vertical lines and blow them up some interesting things happen.

The HVX starts to merge every 4th line after about a 5X blow-up of this one small section and then it clears up once you get beyond that.

The EX1 shows color drift at about 7X – 8X and you can see a red line on the left of the actual line and a green line on the right. (going by memory here) These are sharp, distinct lines forming on the sides but they are only 20% – 30% luminance. When you really blow this small segment of the resolution chart up the lines appear to multiply. The thing most evident in doing this whole procedure is the EX1 has that metallic look like you get from over using unsharp mask in photoshop yet it remains well defined. I’m not sure what frame in the gop structure this image of the resolution chart was produced from and it will likely have different characteristics when using “next frame” along the gop structure which would make for more interesting analysis.

So although I’ve never done much with the EX1 I totally identify with the “video” vs “film” or “metallic” vs “organic” look of the 2 cameras.

“everything is broken” ……1st. coined by Esther Philips I believe.

[Elijah Lynn]

Is it just me or does the HVX look to have all sorts of green and red on a black and white image?

Is this for real? I want to buy the new HPX170 but this is not appealing. Is this a downside of 4:2:2?

We have a XL2 and it has similar symptoms but way worse. The Sony looks much better in that regard.

I only had quicktime player to view these clips so could not zoom in but please let me know your thoughts on the color leakage or made up colors.

Thanks!