sony dsr 25 timecode out by 4 frames on assemble tape edit in FCP… ?

[Rafael Amador]

What are you doing and Print to Video, an Edit to tape?
[Jan Joubert] “Timecode Rec mode on the DSR25 is set to Internal”
You can not record an external TC with the TCG set in “internal”.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com

[Jan Joubert]

Thanks for responding Rafael

Edit to Tape, assemble mode. (lol thought I specified everything! 🙂

Yes I know re TC, as my deck isn’t hooked up through RS422 I can’t send external TC so the only option I have on it is internal… better ideas (other than getting a control deck / burst gen?)

Caffeinecuttingcrunching, digging data pits and building puzzles with timecodes.

[Paul Dickin]

[Jan Joubert] “I’m trying to export a tape for broadcast”
Hi
Since a deck needs pre-roll to get up to speed before switching to Record at the assemble-edit point, your timecode needs to start before the edit-start point.
It cannot do this if you start at 00:00:00:00.

It is usual to lay down timecode onto the tape from say 00:59:00:00 (which gives as programme start point of 01:00:00:00) or 09:00:00:00 (for 10:00:00:00).

Then you can do an Assemble Edit with the deck having timecode to roll back on to cue up the edit.

Read Shane’s Stock answer in this thread:
https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/8/1013791

[Rafael Amador]

Been a tape for broadcast I guess it started by 23:58:…
If you would have striped the tape from 00:00;…the edit would have just aborted.
[Jan Joubert] “Edit to Tape, assemble mode. (lol thought I specified everything! 🙂
“
you didn’t specify nothing in your first post.
Now you started to explain the things.
Why are you controling your desk by RS422?
you are controlling the desk with an interface and sending the picture through a completely different interface.
The 4 frames difference, I guess, are the default 4 frames shift for FW preview.
I think you just should set the Device Control to FW.
If you want to use the RS422, try changing the “frame offset”, in the System Preferences> Playback Control.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com

[Jan Joubert]

Hi Paul, thanks for the response and link! Shane’s answer, though informative, is written with a different goal in mind (insert editing on a dsr25 not assembly) and also would not work from OSX Tiger onwards (according to the thread).

Your words make sense, but if I set the starting TC on tape to 59:00:00 and want the program to start at 01:00:00:00 as you suggest, and I want a 30 sec colours bars, 20 sec black and 10 sec countdown (which i would create on the timeline), that means i’d have to black the tape from 59:00:00 for a 20 sec or so (manually on the dsr25), then crash write the colour bars / leader from the start of tape (59:00:00), then rewind and set the assemble edit start (start of program) to 01:00:00:00 (seeing as presumably the leader / bars would be over a minute by a few frames or seconds).

Or alternatively let the colour bars / leader / etc start at 01:00:00:00 and the program thusly at 01:01:00:00.
if I did this alternative, which seems the most logic, would a broadcaster (which requests a 1 minute lead in specifically) find the starting timecode? (as 1 minute lead in would put the tape at 01:00:00:00 which’d be the start of the colour bars not the program) or would they automatically assume to start their search from 01:00:00:00?

Correct? which do you suggest?

I’ve seen this stuff in the manual but the ambiguity between the various possibilities is killing me

Caffeinecuttingcrunching, digging data pits and building puzzles with timecodes.

[Paul Dickin]

Hi
The DSR-25 (and the DSR-11) are simple decks, and only do Assemble editing.
So Insert Edits are done as assembles – and you hope the end comes out cleanly….
So most people stick to Assemble editing.

Shane’s procedure works fine for Tiger – I do it most weeks.

Set your own timecode parameters to suit.

I use SimpleVideo Out to black the tape from 00:57:45:00(ish), and set up a timeline which starts at 00:58:20:00.
So that is the point at which I aim ETT’s in-edit point – and at which my edit (the only one) happens.

On my timeline I have a slug until 00:58:30:00, the a minute of bars & tone.
Then a 30 sec countdown clock/slate, with a 2-pop sound blip/flash frame at 00:59:50:00.
Show starts at 01:00:00:00.

By doing the edit before the bars I keep the edit point well away from any significant timecode – in case of t/c discontinuity.
But there never is – the deck gets it right every time…

[Rafael Amador]

Sorry yesterday I miss understood few things.
You need stripe a tape with the DSR 25 and make it start in the TC you want (TGC: Internal/Rec Run/Preset) but you need to set the VTR in DVCam mode. You can not do it in DV mode.
Then you need to make an Assemble from 00:00:…on.
Your movie in tape will start with 00:00:…
Rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com

[Rafael Amador]

Hi Jan,
I’ve been reading the manual of the DSR 25 and I think is easy to achieve what you want.
As I said you need to set the VTR to record in DVCam mode because as DV the “External TC” function doesn’t works..
You just need to set the TCG in external, start to record by REC-PLAY and play your sequence.
As soon as the sequence start to play, the desk start to record that TC.
But you need to prepare your sequence.
Change the sequence starting TC to 23:58:00:00 and let a couple of minutes of Black. The begining of the clip must lie in the 00:00:00:00
If you experience the 4 frames delay, change the 4 frames play off-set.
Set the the FC play options to the higher quality available.
rafael
PS: On the two minutes time you can put the bars, black and leaders.
When I used to work in Broadcast we used to lie 1m,30s of bars + 20s of Black + 8s ladder (from 10 to 3) + 2s of black, then the program. the program always started at 00:00:00:00

http://www.nagavideo.com

[Jan Joubert]

OK just an update, im not victorious yet but almost (for reasons you’d find peculiar)

ok it almost worked (both of your responses),
now it is out by 1 frame
I tried both your methods for pre striping TC onto a Tape, they work for striping TC (even on leopard),
but there is still a 1 frame difference between the timeline and the tape when sending the file through FCP ETT Assemble edit.
very small, I know, it’d be fine for broadcast, but I’m still trying to figure out why…

this is crazy,

but insert editing seems to work perfectly on the dsr25 on sony vegas / PC over firewire. That is, I’ve set an assemble edit to start at 00:00:00:00 (and record the program not bars/leader from 00:00:00:00 on) on a brand new S size DV tape at the start of the tape and the program is accurate on tape to the frame in reflection to the timeline. On several cuts. Tried it twice.
The DSR 25 was set to External TC which was sent via firewire

????

I guess the sony blokes incorporated something similar to SimpleVideo out in their software. I must say I didn’t think Vegas could beat FCP in any regard…
either that or the DSR25 isn’t as crap as everyone is saying. I mean talk about overcomplicating simple task (FCP), would you agree?

The final idea I have (other than exporting it to Vegas and doing it from there) is exporting the file with the right TC from SimpleVideoOut,
Oh and Raphael’s just posted another idea as I’m typing (thanks!) ,
both of these I will pursue saturday (I’m not on a strict deadline)

That said, thanks ALOT for helping me so far!!!
heres a beer on me
[img] https://stuffeducatedlatinoslike.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/beer.jpg [/img]

(out of curiosity that’s arisen since exploring this) Does anyone know if a cheap little consumer (non professional) miniDV camera is set to internal or external timecode?

Caffeinecuttingcrunching, digging data pits and building puzzles with timecodes.

[Daryl K davis]

For outputting a frame accurate sequence to DVCAM decks (SONY DSR-11, DSR-25, DSR-45) I too struggled to the point of total frustration, trying time and time again to get the proper timecode to reflect the program in my sequence.

Shane Ross has an excellent post that addresses this:

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/8/863991

This approach has not failed me yet in the dozens of tapes I have output since. Many thanks to Shane.

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DK Davis / Editor/ Post Super
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