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SAN Options (what do I need, what don’t I need?)
Hi all,
It’s another “I don’t know what I need!” thread, so I apologize in advance. I’ve tried to do some reading here and elsewhere to bone up, but there are simply so many options out there. I’d like to try and lay out my needs/plans and see if you guys have any specific recommendations in terms of what might be too much, not enough, or just right in terms of a SAN.
So, to give you some background, I work at a rapidly growing videogame publishing and development company. Our needs our expanding as our roster of games grows, and we’re about to bring on a second video person in-house to deal with the expanding volume of work. A lot of the work we do is kind of rote (processing, encoding, making small adjustments to assets produced out-of-house), but we also do a fair amount of capture and editing (gameplay trailers, demo videos, B-roll, etc.). Our sources are Xbox 360, PS3, and PC. Footage captured from consoles is 720p60 (for now), can be 720 – 1080 on PC. I suspect in the next generation of consoles we might need to move to 1080p60. Most of the work is ProRes 422, but we regularly receive and work with uncompressed assets from out-of-house and sometimes capture uncompressed as well, in situations where we feel we might need pristine, original master quality.
Currently, as there’s only one of me, I’ve got direct-attached storage in the form of a couple aging Apple XServe RAID cabinets. These will be replaced, regardless of SAN solution, as they’re old, slow (compared to new solutions) and no longer supported (so all the data on them is “held hostage” at the moment). I’d like to move to a shared storage solution to facilitate collaboration between myself and the associate and to reduce duplication of assets and simplify asset management. I’d also like to implement a Final Cut Server system that will help organize (and provide better access to the entire marketing department) the video, audio, and other video-related assets we’ve got. That server will need to integrate into the company’s already-existing Windows-based Active Directory domain.
I realize the requirement of “ability to capture and edit uncompressed footage, potentially up to 1080p60” means “lots of bandwidth,” so link-aggregated GigE solutions are out of the picture. That basically leaves (as far as I’m aware), 10GigE iSCSI or 4Gbit FibreChannel. The rooms that both systems will live in are already wired to IT’s nearest server closet with multimode fiber, which as I understand it can be used for either interface. I’m inclined to go with FibreChannel, if only because my existing edit setup (which will move over to the associate position) already has an FC card in it (as does my older system, which is still around for SD analog tape lay-offs).
That said, on the software side, I’m much less sure. In the grand scheme of things, money is not a HUGE constraint, but I would like to be conscientious in spending the company’s funds. If I don’t need something as pricey as a full-on Apple XSan (with its primary and backup metadata controllers, and probably a separate server for FCS/OD-AD integration/regular file-sharing) I’d like to know that now before I bother proposing it as a solution.
If anyone has some guidance, I’d love to hear it. *prepares for the Wrath Of Bob*
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13 Replies
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wrath of Bob ?
work with videogames like PS3 and X-Box 360 ? Ever hear of a little video game company called Electronic Arts ? Ever hear of Madden Football ? No ?
Want to see a picture of their ethernet based shared storage system ?
look at the top picture –
https://www.bobzelin.com/featured-clientProRes422HQ, my friend.
Excellent fibre solutions come from Apple XSAN, Facilis Terrablock, Studio Network Solutions, Cal Digit Super Share and JMR.
Want a real working 10 Gig solution – Small Tree. It’s $40,000 for a 4 seat solution (the wonderful brand new 10 Gig switch is $15,000). A 4 seat XSAN system with 16 Terabytes for about 4 clients will cost you about $60,000.
Don’t have this kind of budget ? I gave you great recommendations, call Cal Digit, JMR, Studio Network Solutions, and Facilis. Can’t afford them ? Ask me more questions.
Bob Zelin
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I guess my question is more: is Apple XSan overkill for two clients (plus the marketing department accessing assets via Ethernet file-sharing from the Final Cut Server)? If the case can be made from a technical standpoint that the greater investment is worth it either in terms of capability, reliability, or future-proofing, then I think it would be made.
That said, if the other Fibre solutions you’ve named are just as capable of meeting my needs—in terms of future expansion of capacity and/or bandwidth, being able to support more than two clients (three, I suppose, if the Final Cut Server machine is counted)—then I’m happy to go with one of them.
I’ll give some of the companies you mentioned a call and ask them some questions as well.
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Matt,
Your head is in the right spot on this one. I think Xsan is overkill for this environment. Final Cut Server might be as well. You might consider a mixed server/storage solution that provides connectivity for both of the client requirements you are presenting. First, you can provide SAN access to the 2 Final Cut workstations either over iSCSI or fibre. Either way, block level is the best performing, most scalable and it is fairly cost effective. Both workstations will be able to edit with the same assets and share project files. Second, you can create a file share on the same storage for the office/LAN clients that you would like to access clips for review or approval, etc… This way the editors can keep their material isolated from the LAN, but still present what they need to, when they need to. For a setup like that, you are looking at a pretty reasonable price tag. I have references at some of the organizations that you are already working with as well.
In terms of asset management. I think CatDV might be an easier solution to implement given the setup. I think you will find more support right out of the box vs. the customization that goes in to Final Cut Server. If you would like to find out more about that, I can put you in touch with some friends that represent that solution as well. Hop over to the CatDV forum on the Cow too.
Jeremy Strootman
jstrootman@studionetworksolutions.com -
For two systems, you do NOT need a shared storage enviornment. You can simply stick two Small Tree 10 Gig card (one in each MAC), and read uncompressed HD and 2K DPX files back and forth between the two computers.
Nick Hasson on this list is doing exactly this with his Smoke (MAC) system and another Apple Color system. You get FASTER THAN FIBRE performance (350MB/sec) between the 10 Gig connection.
I will assist you in setting this up FOR FREE (as I did Nick Hasson). In the future, when you expand, you will hire me to do your full shared storage enviornment.
For two MAC’s, you do not need XSAN. Don’t be silly.
Bob Zelin
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Jeremy is correct – you need CAT DV, and not Final Cut Server.
Bob Zelin
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Hi Bob, hi Jeremy, hi Matt,
I’m also looking for a good network storage solution for our needs. Maybe you could just give me a short preliminary estimate of my needs as well?
We got 3 Mac Pros here, two of them(editing and rendering) are already connected via LAN to a QNAP NAS(used for archive purposes), the 3rd machine works in our cinema(approx. 40meters from the editing suites) for presentation of final cut projects and trailers(HD/SD ProRes/H264, 5.1 audio).
There will be a third Mac Pro for editing and rendering in the future and I would like to have acess to all of our projects(FCP 7) on every Mac Pro.
Does it make sense to set up a san enviroment? What kind of Software do i need? I looked at Sonnets Fusion systems with Fibre channel(sonnet for-4). Would that be the right thing?
Most of the time we’re using SD(ProRes LT) for our editing, but there will be more and more HD Editing and Rendering(export) in the future.
There is also a MacBook Pro which needs access to the projects.Would be great to get a short answer from you “Pro”-guys and sorry matt for disturbing your thread.
Best from munich,
Klaas -
Hi Klaas,
the Sonnet solution is fantastic,but it is fibre channel only (so no MacBook Pro), and you will need a seat
of MetaSAN or FibreJet for every computer ($995 per computer). If you needed uncompressed HD, this would be an ideal solution for you, but since you only need compressed HD, like ProRes codecs, you can use an ethernet based solution. The one I promote is Final Share, but any of them will work for you.
All of these systems use a server, a big drive array, and multiple ethernet ports to feed out to your
MAC computers for editing. The basis of Final Share is link aggregation of multiple ethenret ports.
Each client can do up to 90MB/sec (ProRes422 is only 20MB/sec). Other fine solutions like EditShare also direct connect via ethernet ports. Larger Editshare systems use a 10Gig Ethernet card from their server to a 10 Gig port on an HP switch, (instead of link aggregation) so they can feed off the switch to multiple clients. But it’s the same principal, and works very well.Perfect Etherent based solutions for you come from Maxx Digital, Small Tree, EditShare, Apace and Studio Network Solutions. In the future if you need faster response, because of uncomrpessed HD or 2K work, solutions from Sonnet, JMR, Cal Digit Super Share, SNS, and Apple offer great fibre based solutions. AND if you want something in between, but teriffic and fast, Maxx Digital, Small Tree and EditShare all offer 10 Gig ethernet solutions for all computers (which is about 40,000 US – so it might be too expensive for you). Nothing is less expensive than simple ethernet for shared storage, and for your ProResLT work, this will absolutely work for you.
ps – ethernet can run up to 100 meters, so your 40 meter away system will work fine over ethernet.
Bob Zelin
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Hi Bob,
thanks for your answer to my last post.
I read in Walter Biscardi’s Blog about the new SmallTree ST-Raid which needs no server as i understood. So this would be great for our needs and i don’t need to block a mac pro as a server.
Does anyone know how much this system cost? And when do they start shipping?
What about the integrated ethernet of the Mac Pro, do they support the full bandwith for this system or do i have to use a PCI-x card(from Small Tree for example?)Thanks so much for your help.
Best,
Klaas -
Hi Klaas,
the native ethernet port on Nehalem and Westmere MAC Pro’s works up to 60MB/sec. After you exceed that speed, they will disconnect from a server. The old MAC Pro’s do not have this problem. If you would like to operate at 90MB/sec, this requires jumbo frames, and you will need the Small Tree PEG1 card. If you don’t care about this, and can live with 60MB/sec and under, then you do not need the card. Most people buy the PEG1 card for the MAC Pro’s. A Modern Quad Core Mac Pro with 8 gig RAM is only $2800. This is what is used for a server, so it’s not that expensive. You can contact Small Tree at https://www.small-tree.com, and get pricing from them on the system. A standard ethernet system for 16 TB will be about $15,000, and this includes a MAC Pro.Bob Zelin
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Klaas,
If you would like some more information regarding traditional SAN solutions (software, hardware, etc) I can help. Bob is right about TCP/IP protocols and file sharing. The different hardware/drivers make a difference.
The other thing you can do is use iSCSI as a protocol. That way you will be able to get 90+MB/sec on any workstation. Then you can find a software target (not very cohesive) or a hardware target. Our hardware targets have both fibre and iSCSI. Therefore, you can work in SD/ProRes today and switch to uncompressed HD and 2K via fibre without having to reconfigure anything on the SAN in the future.
Block level access provides the most reliability at the fastest speeds. Save project files to a volume with read/write permissions, and any user can access any project file and media at any time. We provide iSCSI, TCP/IP, fibre channel and 10Gig in one box.
Jeremy
A set up like that should run around $15-18K all in.
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