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sad initial impressions of LairdShare
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Hi Walter –
in 2005, Robin was working on ATA over Ethernet –“In 2005, Robin Frost quietly posted a note on the Apple Forums that he was developing an ATA over Ethernet storage product for Mac OS X. ATA over Ethernet works below the IP level and is very fast — Frost says you get over 100 MB per second on each Ethernet port.
Now, in 2007, Coraid seems to take responsibility for developing ATA over Ethernet –
https://coraid.com/index.htmlFrom the 2frost website –
Using Mac AoE turnkey storage, single disks or RAID sets of disks are published as ‘AoE Drives’ on the network where they can be discovered, formatted and partitioned, and then used just like regular ATA drives – but in a shared network environment.
The 2ºFrost AoE Driver™ for Mac OS X provides Mac Users with the ability to directly access Mac AoE disks and/or RAID sets on the network as if they were locally attached ATA drives.
• Automatically supports Ethernet 9000-byte “Jumbo Frames” for maximum performance
• Automatically supports multiple ethernet cards/ports for connecting AoE storage
• New proprietary technology provides auto discovery and auto mounting of AoE devices attached to a Mac.REPLY – this surely sounds very interesting, and companies like Coraid make the arrays. I wish you could commment more on this.
I found this driver on PCMALL for $399, but not the entire turnkey system that Robin was describing –
PC Mall Part #: 7297314OOPS !!!! found it –
PC Mall Part #: 7297302
You get the 2Frost SAN with 5 Terabytes of shared storage in a Linux box for $21,869.99. Now is this self contained – does it require a host computer (like Lairdshare) to control the Metadata, or run MetaSAN – or what. Are there any details that you would like to tell us ? The PC Mall descripition states that this is only for 3 client workstations.Bob Zelin
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Bob, thanks for your questions, here we go…
From the XSan forum, Robin writes –
everyone on this forum thread seems to be equating ‘Ethernet’ with ‘TCP/IP over Ethernet’ which SATA-SAN storage is not using.REPLY – please explain your connectivity – are you using Gig Ethernet, aggrigated 2 port Gig ethernet, 10 Gig E or Fibre channel with a fibre card in the host (and a fibre switch) ?
[answer] Our connectivity is Ethernet – but raw Ethernet i.e. point-to-point, mac-address to mac-address, without the overhead of TCP/IP, as stated above. We can use any number of GbE ports or 10GbE ports, copper or fiber. We are not ‘link aggregating’ ports like in TCP/IP as we don’t need to. We don’t use or need fibre channel although we can easily coexist with legacy fibre channel storage which gives our customers a great upgrade path.
Robin writes –
With the 2Degrees SATA-SAN products we’re running a real SAN using raw ethernet – multi-GbE or 10GbE – as the storage fabric instead of fibre channel. SATA-SAN storage sends SATA disk commands and data over Ethernet using raw ethernet packets at full wire speed i.e. >100MB/sec, maxing out at ~110MB/s per Gigabit connection. No IP is involved which is chatty and slow.REPLY – this is confusing to me. You are using Tiger Technology MetaSAN or Charismac Fibre Jet as your interface (as per your website), but your connectivity is “raw ethernet” – is this aggrigated port ethernet, or 10Gig E ? The client edit computer has to have some way of plugging into your storage – how does it plug in ?
[answer] Let me say it another way. Our connectivity is Ethernet, running the lightweight and fast SATA-over-Ethernet protocol without IP. There are no limitations as we are not ‘aggregating’ ports, all ports are active all the time. The client computers just plug into a commodity Ethernet switch(es) which the storage is also connected to. Clients can even direct connect e.g. with a six GbE port storage unit you can direct connect six workstations for >100MB/sec each, great for editing workgroups with compressed HD formats.
By the way, we are not using MetaSAN or Commandsoft’s (not Charismac’s) FibreJet as our ‘interface’. Our website mentions these are part of our software stacks that we provide to meet our customer’s need for file-level or volume-level sharing on the SAN. The actual UIs are different depending on the software stack. If customers don’t have a need for sharing then they can access Raid sets or even JBOD drives from workstations as extra storage. It’s very flexible.
The SATA-over-Ethernet protocol used is a mature protocol which provides reliable and fast delivery using raw point-to-point ethernet transport. Device discovery is almost instant and plug-and-play without IP setup hassles or limitations.
REPLY – this is called AoE, correct ? again, when we plug the client workstation (FCP) into your “box”, is it a single Gig E cable, 2 Gig E cables, a CX4 10Gig cable ? Does it plug into a central switch ? Is the switch part of your product, that holds the drives ?
[answer] Any or All of the above, as all ports are active all of the time, so we can use one or two or six GbE ports/cables, or a 10GbE CX4 or 10GbE fiber connection, individually or all together. We use commodity Ethernet switches and design the best architecture for each client, which can be centralized or not depending on the application.
Robin writes –
We have 2x 1GbE ports on the SATA-SAN Dual GbE units and both of them can be used at the same time at wire speed to read and write from any raid set in the unit. So the Dual GbE SATA-SAN storage achieves >200MB/sec, maxing out at ~220MB/sec. With SATA-SAN 10GbE storage units we achieve >500MB/sec sustained throughput and ~800-900MB/sec out of the cache. That’s faster than 4Gb fibre channel…REPLY – I was told by several people (and all could be wrong, and I certainly am no expert) that running a dual aggrigated etherenet port on the client workstation would not increase the bandwidth to the server computer that runs the storage. Does running AoE resolve this issue, giving the ability to get over 200mb/sec from dual Gig E interface ?
[answer] You’re right, they’re wrong. They are applying the usual rules of IP based Ethernet which do not apply to us. As stated before, we are not ‘link aggregating’. With our software it truly does make sense for us to run two GigE cables from each FCP workstation to double the bandwidth to >200Mb/s.
SATA-SAN is an exciting cost-effective alternative to fibre channel with all the benefits of a simpler multi-GbE or 10GbE infrastructure.
REPLY – existing solutions use multi Gig E using link aggrigation protocol in managed switches (with multi port ethernet cards) to obtain larger “pipes”, but there is still limited bandwidth using ethernet to the CLIENT workstation. Does your solution resolve this issue ?
[answer] Yes, it does resolve this issue. Please see last [answer].
Bob mentioned MetaLAN – this uses TCP/IP to provide gatewayed access over the LAN to a SAN, so this will only run around 50MB/sec at usual LAN speeds. MetaLAN is similar to running iSCSI which is also slow. We often supply MetaLAN to gateway into our SATA-SAN storage networks running MetaSAN allowing some users to access SAN data at LAN speeds.
REPLY – doesn’t 2degreesfrost specify MetaSAN as their user interface on their website ? If I am wrong, what is your user interface – is it propriatary (unique to your company) ?
[answer] MetaSAN is not our user interface but is part of one of our software stacks. MetaSAN (or FibreJet) will not work on its own with our SATA-SAN storage, we had to develop our own proprietary software which form the other layers of our software stacks that together deliver complete SAN software solutions. There are different UIs for the different software stacks.
Thanks for your interest and I trust these answers above are helpful to you. SATA-SAN is a disruptive technology so one does need to get one’s head around some new thinking.
Robin Frost
CTO
2ºFrost Data Solutions
http://www.2degreesfrost.com“Seriously Cool Storage”
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I don’t know their pricing structure but I found a press release from Jan 2007 that listed one of 2DegreeFrost’s 11.25Tb drive systems for under $15K.
https://coraid.vnewscenter.com/press.jsp?id=1168260695635That was last year and that was without cards, but it’s one of the better prices I’ve seen for this stuff. I am about to base our post workflow on ONE of these systems (Editshare, Facilis, 2DegreeFrost, Apace, etc….) and now really wish I’d been at NAB.
If only I could edit with each one for a while and test for any quirks…. Has there ever been a “SAN shootout” challenge?
John McClary
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John,
the decision I ultimately made was based strictly on support, not performance. Since this is not a simple “plug and play” project, I urge you to call all of these companies, and see who you feel comftorable with, and who you feel will give you the best support. The fastest system in the world will mean nothing, if you can’t get it to work.bob Zelin
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In regard to Robin’s note about priding themselves on quick response. When we were researaching shared storage solutions back in the early part of this year, we submitted a detailed information request on the website contact form and never received a reply.
After that I submitted a detailed direct email to sales@2degreesfrost.com and also never received a reply. Had we gotten a reply I would’ve almost certainly followed up with phone calls.
We check our spam filters daily (through Clean Mail), and I’m especially diligent at checking when I’m waiting for a reply from a company I’ve emailed for the first time.
It doesn’t do much good to have a website, contact form and direct email contacts if they can’t get through to people or if they go unanswered. I can only assume they were filtered or simply went unread.
Many facility owners on the Cow are like me. Just about every workday is spent editing, shooting or meeting with clients. I do all my equipment and facility research in the evenings online. Then do phone inquiries, conference calls etc. in one big batch on a slow day.
We researched probably 20 different solutions when we were looking at shared storage. I simply didn’t have the time to call each and every one of them, explain in detail our needs, and then listen to the answers
Anyway…we were intrigued by your products, but ultimately spent our time evaluating the products from people that seemed to want our business. As noted in earlier posts, that included barely a handful of companies.
As an aside, we also contacted Coraid. They took over a week to respond to an initial email…and the response we got was so vague…so cryptic in it’s product explanation, that I immediately crossed them off the list.
I think what everybody on these groups is trying to tell companies is this:
We need easy to understand, clear product descriptions and we want products that solve our problems. I’ll give you an example directly from your website of something that confused me during my research.
Your section on AoE says:
With 2ºFrost proprietary SAN-Adapt™ software, SATA-SAN supports cross-platform SAN shared filesystems FibreJet™ and MetaSAN™ which provide complementary high-performance approaches to SAN file sharing for content creation, video and audio editing SAN workgroups and Servers/Clusters.
What does that mean? The top of your AoE web page says it’s a turn-key solution. Then this paragraph suggests I would need either FibreJet or MetaSAN software to get file-sharing for video editing. FibreJet is something like $1500 per editing seat, and MetaSAN is roughly $1000 per seat. I don’t call that “turn-key” when I have to pay anywhere from $4000-$6000 to get file-sharing with a system. If FibreJet or MetaSAN are included in the turn-key price…that should be made clear.
Anyway…I’ve discussed the shared storage issue with dozens of facility owners over the last year, and they all agree that the industry makes it:
-Overly complicated
-They talk “down” to facility owners when it comes to how the various systems work, especially when it comes to discussing block-level and file-level issues.
-Many of the storage companies can’t accurately explain the difference between SAN, LAN, ISCSI, and AoE.
-Most of the companies making products don’t seem to understand what small to medium sized post facilities need….which is a simple to administer, transparent storage system that allows multiple editors to edit from the same storage pool simultaneously.
Anyway…I’m certainly not trying to slam 2 Degrees Frost, as their products and track record seem to indicate they’re a very progressive company. But at the same time, none of that matters if no one follows up when a customer requests information.
Chris Blair
Magnetic Image, Inc.
Evansville, IN
http://www.videomi.com -
Sorry for the lack of response. I know it can be very frustrating.
We read all inquiries received from our website and also those sent to sales@2degreesfrost.com several times a day, every day of the week. We regret we are unable to explain how your emails were missed.
Coraid, is a component manufacturer that sells only in the Linux market and does not supply solutions. They frequently refer customers to us who require solutions for Mac/Windows/Linux but somehow in your case we did not receive any referral from them.
I’d like to give some time to your questions.
2ºFrost proprietary SAN-Adapt™ software, SATA-SAN supports cross-platform SAN shared filesystems FibreJet™ and MetaSAN™ which provide complementary high-performance approaches to SAN file sharing for content creation, video and audio editing SAN workgroups and Servers/Clusters.
What does that mean? The top of your AoE web page says it’s a turn-key solution. Then this paragraph suggests I would need either FibreJet or MetaSAN software to get file-sharing for video editing. FibreJet is something like $1500 per editing seat, and MetaSAN is roughly $1000 per seat. I don’t call that “turn-key” when I have to pay anywhere from $4000-$6000 to get file-sharing with a system. If FibreJet or MetaSAN are included in the turn-key price…that should be made clear.
Thank you for pointing out the confusion with the wording on our website and we will be revising it to make it more clear. We are striving to be more transparent to people who visit our website and your feedback contributes to this ongoing effort.
We supply complete hardware with software solutions which are fully configured at our facility and so ready to install “out of the box” at the customer’s site – this is our reason for using the “Turnkey” description.
To add the basic SATA-SAN storage to a network with the 2ºFrost SATA-SAN™* *driver software is straightforward as no server is required to access the storage; the hardware simply requires an Ethernet connection (our storage works with commodity network switches) and once installed the SATA-SAN storage via our 2ºFrost software appears to the user as if it were SATA disk(s) in your computer.
For collaborative workgroups, which are common in the video* *and content creation* *communities, we bring together 2ºFrost* *Software Stacks which comprise 2ºFrost software layered with full versions of metaSAN™ or FibreJet and the storage hardware. Together they address a variety of workflows, ie a project-based volume sharing workflow preferred by firewire upgraders (featuring FibreJet) or a file-based sharing workflow offering both SAN and LAN access (featuring metaSAN™/metaLAN™).* *We also work with customers to select the right combination of software stack for their particular workgroup/network needs.
On site installation assistance by one of our SAN specialists is provided for installs of metaSAN™*-* or FibreJet™*-*featured stacks so our customers time is freed up from having to figure out how to install these software packages onto the workstations in their network.
Our on site SAN specialist will provide training on how to work with the software We also provide after sales technical support services. 2ºFrost supports the Software Stacks and SATA-SAN Storage hardware that they supply.
We have worked closely with various strategic partners since 2006 to ensure we can supply a range of stable and reliable storage solutions to our customers. As a result, 2ºFrost have designed storage solutions with appropriate software stacks for the application areas of video, audio, centralized storage, backup/recovery and media content creation.
Apple have been very supportive of us bringing this storage platform to Mac OS X and said on their Developer Website “Besides great performance, this technology works just as you expect it to on a Mac.”
EMC independently tested the SATA-SAN storage platform and 2ºFrost software with their Retrospect backup software for several weeks in early 2007 at their labs under the EMC Certification Program* *- and it didn’t lose a byte.
It was only after successfully completing that certification process that 2ºFrost was appointed an OEM Partner with EMC so that we may bundle Retrospect software with the SATA-SAN hardware as a backup/recovery solution for customers.
We work very hard to produce a great build-to-order solution to our customers for a very good reason – we believe a happy customer is a customer who may refer us to their friends/colleagues which could result in more sales. That’s happening right now and is very important to our bottom line.
Anyway…I’ve discussed the shared storage issue with dozens of facility owners over the last year, and they all agree that the industry makes it:
-Overly complicated
-They talk “down” to facility owners when it comes to how the various systems work, especially when it comes to discussing block-level and file-level issues.
I welcome your questions and I won’t talk down to you. My aim will be clarity.
Walter Zamojski
walterz@2degreesfrost.comwz2degrees
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Walter,
You wrote:We work very hard to produce a great build-to-order solution to our customers for a very good reason – we believe a happy customer is a customer who may refer us to their friends/colleagues which could result in more sales. That’s happening right now and is very important to our bottom line.
I welcome your questions and I won’t talk down to you. My aim will be clarity.
Chris writes:
That was a much better explanation of what you guys offer. But even some of that explanation was a little over my head. I understand it, but it’s still pretty technical. My point is that every facility ownwer I know is NOT a computer expert. They’re most certainly not an expert on shared storage and the various architectures that make them work. When you guys start talking about “clusters” and “layers” and “software stacks,” it doesn’t mean anything to us.
It reminds me when we first opened our company 13 years ago. We’d bring ad agency producers and account executives in for meetings and we’d go on for 20 minutes about our great editing system and how it was capable of 2:1 video compression…the best in the world at the time, and how we were using cameras and formats that gave them the highest quality…etc. etc. The ad agency folks’ eyes would start to glass over and they’d lose interest. What we learned is: “they didn’t care about the hardware and compression and formats.” They just wanted us to solve their problem. They didn’t care how. As long as it communicated their message and looked good. We could’ve shot with a Fischer Price camera and if we made it look good and came in on budget…we were hired.
The lesson is that all the technical stuff ultimately doesn’t matter. It just needs to work and solve the clients problem with the least amount of pain and suffering! I think the biggest point to remember is that a shared storage system never made a company money. It’s the benefits of what the shared storage system is able to do that helps a company make money. So all these companies out there selling these systems tout the hardware and technical specs…when what facility owners want is solutions to their editing problems. Namely…having to constantly transfer footage; having to move project files from station to station; the complication of backups when files reside on multiple workstations and hard drive arrays; the issue of constant file duplication on those backups, which wastes hard drive space and further complicates administration of backups; the ability of multiple editors and effects artists to work on the same project from the same media pool simultaneously. I could go on for another paragraph.
Anyway…I would’ve loved to evaluate your products when we were doing our research and I can’t explain why our emails didn’t get through …but they didn’t. One was sent from my home computer and emailed directly from our web-server email page. The other was sent from my work computer via Outlook. Neither bounced back so I can only assume they went somewhere.
Several other emails sent during the same email sessions got to their destinations so it doesn’t seem like there was a problem on our end. We’ve had a couple of experiences where our URL was mistakenly blacklisted by internet providers and all our email ended up in our spam folders, but it was pretty obvious because the entire office stopped receiving email and it only took a few hours to realize something wasn’t working. One look in our spam folder on CleanMail.com and there were all our legitimate emails. We simply mark the legitimate ones and they all pass through to Outlook…and the blacklisting is fixed with one phone call.
Anyway…I appreciate your response and I appreciate the complexity of your industry. But as a 25 year production veteran and facility owner, what we all want when it comes to products and vendors is: clarity, simplicity, and products that solve our problems. All the other technical mumbo/jumbo is just hype. Maybe there are IT guys out there that like all the stuff, but there are thousands of production facilities worldwide that don’t employ IT people. And many of those folks will be looking for shared storage solutions in the near future.
Chris Blair
Magnetic Image, Inc.
Evansville, IN
http://www.videomi.com
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