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RGB 4:4:4 in FCP
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[Rafael Amador] “What I’m talking is nothing related with HDSI, capture or processing.
I say that you can import and export 10b RGB with FC. . i’ve made the test. “What good is a workflow that does not deliver a finished output to your client?
This is not about something that works only on your computer. What happens when you need to get paid for that job and that requires a tape for delivery? Not too many clients take files for final outputs they want tape, and not all of them have an HDCamSR and editing configuration that can handle RGB deliverables.
At some point in time, a person going thru this much fraking hassle is going to want to show it or sell it to some one. What happens then, when all of the semantics and exercises go by the wayside when the project is has to be laid to tape so you can get paid.
During your test, what did you view the images on?
a true 10bit broadcast output or that 8bit Cinema Display via DVI?How are you determining what is display dither vs image degradation, these test are much easier to analyze on scopes (not on the machine you are generating the imagery on).
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production WorkflowsCheck out
https://www.aja.com/kiprotour/Inside look at the IoHD
https://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php -
[Christopher Gray] “If I understand correctly I can capture dual link from
HDcamSR 444 rgb 10 bit. Make cuts but no effects in FCP, and
output back to HDcamSR dual link 444 rgb 10bit. “Correct. use the AJA 10bit codec (LOG or LIN is determined by original capture)
“In case we have to use effects in fcp am I right that 10 bit 422 yuv should look better than 8 bit 444 rgb.”
Most of your deliverables will be as 10bit YUV so by working in that color space you are less susceptible to color conversion, gamma shifts and grading errors when converting your content to 10bit YUV.
So no there is nothing wrong with working in YUV for video or web delivery.gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production WorkflowsCheck out
https://www.aja.com/kiprotour/Inside look at the IoHD
https://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php -
Hi Gary,
I agree with your considerations about the workflow but my question was focus in the capability of FC on ingesting and exporting 10b RGB without crunching the 10b.
I made the tests with the ioHD to a pro monitor. No external WFM (I wish I had).
I don’t work with 10b RGB (probably will never do it) but is good to be ready.
You know that the information about this format is little and scattered so the only reliable source is somebody like you with experience.
Don’t get angry with me if i ask too much. I just want to know:-)
Cheers,
rafael -
[Rafael Amador] “I don’t work with 10b RGB (probably will never do it) but is good to be ready. You know that the information about this format is little and scattered so the only reliable source is somebody like you with experience. Don’t get angry with me if i ask too much”
I am not angry, frustrated would be a better term.
I know from our communications that you do not work in RGB, and I was pretty specific about the real limitation being a physical hardware limitation, yet you came back and stated that ” FC can do this” and “I tested this” with a test that ended up bypassing or ignoring that there ARE actual physical limitations according to the SMPTE specs that limit what can be output.
I can assure you that someone will quote you later that FCP can do 10bit RGB over HDSDI, even though it can’t- since 10bit RGB requires Dual Link hardware and connections to deliver that signal.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production WorkflowsCheck out
https://www.aja.com/kiprotour/Inside look at the IoHD
https://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php -
[gary adcock] “I can assure you that someone will quote you later that FCP can do 10bit RGB over HDSDI, even though it can’t- since 10bit RGB requires Dual Link hardware and connections to deliver that signal.”
I read your posts with a lot of attention and I read them few times before posting back.I’ve been talking about a very specific situation were the HDSD takes no part. I haven’t talk about delivery any signal, but about Copying&Pasting QT files.
Don’t get frustrated just because I want understand. And I don’t understand a hardware limitation in doing this.
rafael -
[Rafael Amador] “I agree with your considerations about the workflow but my question was focus in the capability of FC on ingesting and exporting 10b RGB without crunching the 10b. “
When you mention Ingest that completely throws out your test. You said you made a pattern internally in your original test and now you say you want to focus on the capability of Ingesting 10bit RGB on FCP which you can’t do with your Io HD. Nor can you properly view your 4:4:4 10bit footage off an Io HD. You will require either a Kona 3 with Dual Link and a Dual Link capable monitor or the Kona LHi with a 3G output and a 3G capable monitor. Any other method of ingesting or viewing 10bit 4:4:4 RGB footage is moot when it comes to that workflow and FCP.
If you want to learn about the capabilities of FCP and RGB 4:4:4 simply Search this forum and the AJA Kona Forum for RGB, 4:4:4 and Gary Adcock. Gary has spoken often of this workflow and has by far the most experience of anyone I’ve met with this format.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
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[Rafael Amador] “I’ve been talking about a very specific situation were the HDSD takes no part. I haven’t talk about delivery any signal, but about Copying&Pasting QT files. “
that is not a workflow, that is not finishing a project that is play. jeez its not even a real test, since you are only use the apple tools to test your theories.
you cannot live in a vacuum at some point you have to be able to deliver whatever that content is to your client, not just make up a science project on your own personal computer, that is a sham.
“And I don’t understand a hardware limitation in doing this.”
Just a lack of experience with the specific tools and workflow, had you ever been hired to deliver some RGB content to a deck for client approval all of this would be glaringly apparent.
My problem with this conversation is you keep telling me that “it can be done” however you have never finished or delivered RGB content to a client- and over 50% of my content is handled that way from the start.
Don’t tell me it can be done even the wiki on HDSDI says it has to be a dual link connection to get 10bit RGB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_Digital_Interface
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production WorkflowsCheck out
https://www.aja.com/kiprotour/Inside look at the IoHD
https://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php -
Dear friends,
Sorry for the delay but I´ve been travelling.[walter biscardi] “When you mention Ingest that completely throws out your test.”
Sorry for using the word¨”Ingest”. I guess I should have sayd simply “Import”.[gary adcock] “that is not a workflow, that is not finishing a project that is play. jeez its not even a real test, since you are only use the apple tools to test your theories.”
There are many people that get theyr stuff in a HD and deliver in a Hard Disk. Is this not a workflow?
I´ve been always talking about managing QT files. No capture, no print to video.About the “Apple tools”:
I´ve built a 10b RGB B&W ramp in Shake. What´s wrong? Is it not a real 10b RGB file?I´ve imported the file to FC and exported without recompression. The file I get on exporting still being 10b RGB.
I haven´t used any sophisticated tool to check the file. Just the Scope in FC and Color.
For me even this is un necessary.
To tell a 10b B6W ramp from an 8b B&W ramp you just need a monitor.
If you are not able to tell a 10b ramp from an 8b ramp in a Pro monitor, you need glasses.
Rafael -
[Rafael Amador] “I´ve built a 10b RGB B&W ramp in Shake. What´s wrong? Is it not a real 10b RGB file? “
Please explain how do you determine if the is any issue with the COLOR using a grayscale Image?
testing without a full bandwidth shows nothing- My guess it was static too- really good testing for an RGB video file.Your methodology is seriously flawed for testing any kind of workflow, you create something in Shake and send back and forth thru the same companies applications and tools, what kind of test is that?
IMHO its an exercise in futility.
[Rafael Amador] “I´ve imported the file to FC and exported without recompression. The file I get on exporting still being 10b RGB. “
How do you know?
your Cinema Display is 8 bit, your flat panel display is 8bit, you have no hardware or scopes outside of the applications that you created the files on to test your theory or that image with.“I haven´t used any sophisticated tool to check the file. Just the Scope in FC and Color. “
Poor and inaccurate test conditions invalidate your POV, if you did not even try to prove it outside of your setup -it cannot hold up to my testing I can assure you.
[Rafael Amador] “There are many people that get theyr stuff in a HD and deliver in a Hard Disk. Is this not a workflow? I´ve been always talking about managing QT files. No capture, no print to video. “
When I work in LA, NYC, Tokyo, London or Dubai my clients want hard copies of the final output, while intermediate files are often passed across a network or via a drive- THE FINAL output is 99.999% of the time to HDCamSR or D5 tape as part of a completion bond or deliverable request, and that means that you are screwed.
Re-Create your test with a Moving 10bit RGB file that includes more that a just a B&W ramp in AE or Nuke, then send back to FCP and watch what happens.
It is not good for a moderator on the Cow to profess to be knowledgeable in an area that you have not ever worked in. I at least I do know that testing without having external validation is neither accurate or wise.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production WorkflowsCheck out
https://www.aja.com/kiprotour/Inside look at the IoHD
https://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php -
Hi Gary,
You sound like a politician: You just talk, talk, talk:[gary adcock] “Please explain how do you determine if the is any issue with the COLOR using a grayscale Image? “
I”M NOT LOOKING FOR ANY COLOR ISSUE THIS IS WHY I WORK IN B&W.[gary adcock] “testing without a full bandwidth shows nothing-“
The term BANDWIDTH makes no sense here.
In digital you can only talk about BANDWIDTH when transferring data. Here we are talking about cutting&pasting QT files.Etc, etc..
You talk, talk, talk but instead of an answers you give me insults.
You mention whatever no related subject, but you don’t give a technical answer against my “theory’ that “IS POSSIBLE TO IMPORT AND EXPORT A QT 10b RGB FILE KEEPING THE PICTURE INTEGRITY AS LONG AS LONG AS THERE IS NO RE-COMPRESSION”.
You insult me when you suggest that I’ve been using a 8b Cinema display to do my tests.
I wouldn’t be that stupid Gary.
I’ve stated that I’ve been monitoring in 10b YUV in a CRT professional monitor.
This just shows that you don’t even bother to read my posts.“Poor and inaccurate tests conditions” invalidates my tests, you said.
I think that you have become a bit “hardware-software dependent”.
You need a mega-bucks system to tell you what your eyes could tell you.
The test is good enough for what I want to check (10b vs 8b).
A “Full Range 10b RGB” picture have 1024 Luma levels while an 8b RGB picture have only 256.
If you are not able to tell one from the other in a CRT monitor, or you need glasses, or you need to change monitor.I do not profess to be knowledgeable in nothing. I m just asking questions and not getting any valid answer.
You disqualify me because I have no experience in 10b RGB workflow.
Experience doesn’t tell me much today.
Here in the COW we read everyday posts of people working with the most expensive systems and undertaking the most sophisticated workflows.
Quite often, their questions/answers show that they have no idea about what they have on their hands.
Today a monkey can drive a rocket to Mars (and without making questions).I have no experience ( I’ve recognized that many post up from this one) with 10b RGB workflows, but my base-knowledge qualifies me to understand and learn what ever thing related with him. I’m able to put the pieces together in my head. To do so, some times I need some answers.
I’ve asked Graeme Nattress about my theory.
He said that shouldn’t be no problem in cutting 10b RGB footage in FC, and exporting keeping the fool picture quality.
Cheers,
rafael
PS: If Graeme would tell me “NO”, I would have ask him” why?”.
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