RED camera / FCP & long-form project workflow

[Walter Biscardi]

In short, it’s a very convoluted workflow right now and one that will hopefully get better in the future. We investigated it for a client with a series and it’s definitely not ready for broadcast TV yet.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

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[Aaron Neitz]

I can’t say for RED… but given the amount of P2 we’ve been seeing lately: Let the clients know that they will need to spend $$$$ on storage. Lots of it. And everything needs a backup.

“Just because you’re shooting digital doesn’t mean it’s going to be cheap” -Me

[Arnie Schlissel]

Have you or your producers spent any time on the Red User forums? https://www.reduser.net/forum/index.php

What do your DP & editor say? They’re the one’s who’ll really have to work through all the kinks & idiosyncrasies of this camera.

Red is very much a “work in progress” right now. Not only will you need to create your own workflow, you may need to adapt it as you go along because of changes to the firmware & software bundle.

Availability of the cameras is pretty limited. There are only 100 cameras out there right now, and they can all be considered prototypes. If you wanted to shoot a project right now, you’d have to either rent one of these 100 cameras or hire it’s owner as your DP.

Even when they eventually do go into regular production, the next few hundred cameras are already committed to existing orders.

As an alternative to Red, take a look at Thompson Viper, Sony F23, Panavision Genesis, Arri D-20, Silicon Imaging SI2K, Vision Research Phantom, & the Panasonic HPX-3000.

Arnie
Now in post: Peristroika, a film by Slava Tsukerman
https://www.arniepix.com/blog

[Walter Biscardi]

[Arnie Schlissel] “What do your DP & editor say? They’re the one’s who’ll really have to work through all the kinks & idiosyncrasies of this camera.”

Actually from a D.P. perspective, it sounds like it’s a very straightforward camera. At least from the ones I’ve spoken to. It’s the Post production aspect of it that’s extremely convoluted right now. They spent so much time working on the camera that the editing side of things got a bit overlooked.

I can tell you that they are diligently working on that and hopefully by NAB we’ll see some progress on that end.

My suggestion to the D.P. here was to go ahead and use that camera, but roll to Panasonic 1400 DVCPro HD decks for the time being to maintain an easy Post workflow until the RED codecs are easier to work with. One thing though, I’m not sure we’ll ever be able to use the native RED files in FCP since they are not quicktime files. Either Apple is going to have to make major changes to FCP to handle RED or they will have to come up with some sort of intermediate way of working with the full resolution files.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR
The new Color Training DVD now available from the Creative Cow!

Read my Blog!

[Sean Oneil]

The manual is available on the RED website. It has everything you need to know about the camera. Remember, it’s just a camera. Not your line producer or post production supervisor.

[daryl k davis] “- Methods in managing vast amounts of media from each day’s shooting
They support 320GB hard drives which hold 180 min of 4k 2:1. You can probably even use generic eSATA drives, although I don’t know this for certain.
– How audio is handled (single system or post-syncing with double system)
Looking at the picture I see XLR and timecode connectors. So I’m sure you can use whatever system you want.
– Integration with Cinema Tools
Not sure what you would want to use CT for. Since it’s not film you don’t need it.
– Outputting DVD dailies
It outputs 720p over HD-SDI. You can connect that to whatever recording device you want. You can also plug the hard drives into an on-site computer and create DVDs however you like. They are just Quicktime movies recorded to a hard drive.
– Both film-out (DI) and HD broadcast deliveries
The REDCINE supports DPX output for a DI. AJA and Blackmagic products also come with tools covert Quicktime to and from DPX.

I’m not in field production, and I’ve never used a RED. I’m just trying to give you some common sense answers. The reason so many people are attracted to this product is because you get the quality of film yet a very simple video-only type of post workflow. No reason to make it harder than it needs to be.

Sean

[Daryl K davis]

Yes, thank you, I have been on the Red User forum and yes I agree everything with thie RED/FCP workflow is a work in progress. It just seems that everything there is related to short tests and such.

The main reason I’m enquiring here is that a Producer (who just acquired a camera) asked me if it is a viable option to proceed on his next feature (shooting starting March 1) with this camera. He’s interested in how does the workflow stack up to shooting 35mm 3-perf, and all the details. The DP also just received his own camera but is still away on vacation for a couple weeks and has not even done his own tests with it yet. (Needless to say they are thinking 2-camera shoot here).

Being this is low-budget (less than 5 million) I will probably edit and post-supervise myself. I guess I’m just wondering if there has been an actual movie done completely through with the RED camera. Most people I know have only used it for effects shots.

Just putting the questions out there for any thoughts. Thanks.

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DK Davis / Editor/ Post Super
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[Sean Oneil]

[Daryl K Davis] “Being this is low-budget (less than 5 million) I will probably edit and post-supervise myself. I guess I’m just wondering if there has been an actual movie done completely through with the RED camera. Most people I know have only used it for effects shots”

Universal’s “Wanted” was shot on it. $65 million dollar action movie with an A-list cast.

Sean

[Arnie Schlissel]

Steven Soderbergh is supposed to have shot 2 features on Red this past year. “Guerilla” and “The Argentine”.

In terms of image quality, I know that some labs have run tests & shot some footage out to film. I’m pretty sure that Du Art in New York is one of them. Make a few calls to your favorite labs & see who has footage that you can see.

[Daryl K Davis] “He’s interested in how does the workflow stack up to shooting 35mm 3-perf, and all the details.”

Short answer? The workflow for 3-perf is well established. The workflow for Red is quite a bit less well developed.

There is an FCP plugin that you can download from red.com that looks like it supports native Redcode Raw in FCP 6.0.2 & QT. You can use Red Alert & RedCine to make QT proxies for editing, compositing, dailies, etc. Once you complete your edit, you can always export to .dpx or .tiff for color grading & film output.

Arnie
Now in post: Peristroika, a film by Slava Tsukerman
https://www.arniepix.com/blog

[Steven Gonzales]

Cinefilm in Atlanta has an interesting workflow with 3 perf to HDCAM masters and ProRes422 files simultaneously, if you want another comparison.

I helped with a film, not yet finished, but the image is great to work with in Final Cut. Add in the Matrox MXO and Apple 23 inch monitor, and it’s a nice working environment.

[Daryl K davis]

Thanks everyone for everything. I guess we’ll how it all works out with this RED camera system. Seems like my whole post history has been one of trial and tribulation… from my first HDCAM 24p MOW in 2002 through to FCP edited 35mm 3-perf to DI features (which there is still no easy formula to do as Cinema Tools does great neg-cut lists but no DI lists).

Wish me luck,

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DK Davis / Editor/ Post Super
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