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Reactions to Apples business model
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I’m just saying that I think there is some validity to Darren’s comparison: Firewire was a fast, promising interconnect that changed expansion on Macs. Thunderbolt is a fast, promising interconnect that will change expansion on Macs.
I don’t say this to knock Thunderbolt. You’re right that Thunderbolt is a big deal. Of course Thunderbolt is more capable than FW400, but I think you’re downplaying how important Firewire was when it was introduced.
[Craig Seeman] “But whereas firewire started with handling DV and had nothing to do with BetaSP or DigiBeta in uncompressed form for input or media file access, Thunderbolt starts out handling ProRes and Uncompressed I/O devices and simultaneous layers of playback from storage. Firewire didn’t represent the high end at the time but Thunderbolt does.”
You’re conflating Firewire and DV25.
ProRes didn’t exist when FW400 was developed, but FW400 had plenty of bandwidth for it. The AJA io, with “real” video over Firewire, was a pretty big deal, too.
Also, I’ll dispute that Thunderbolt is the high end: it’s 4x PCIe. Thunderbolt is one-quarter of the high-end of expansion. It is fast enough, though not the fastest, and it’s cheap enough, though not the cheapest — just like Firewire was.
[Craig Seeman] “Firewire handled storage but couldn’t match the speed of SCSI RAID.”
FW400 replaced Fast Wide SCSI on the PowerMac G3. Fast Wide SCSI tops out at 160 Mbit/s. Firewire’s line speed was 2.5 times faster than the interconnect it replaced — and it was cheaper.
[Craig Seeman] “Firewire started with a consumer format that, over time became accept in some pro circles as DV eventually led to DVCProHD.”
DV25 was one of the earliest uses for FW, but again, FW400 and DV25 are not the same. As you noted, DVCPROHD (and DVCPRO50, for that matter) were both pro formats introduced after Firewire that still only used a fraction of FW400’s bandwidth.
Firewire was a big deal outside of the video world, too. Firewire scanners and storage were big in photography at the time.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
Walter,
Thanks (again) for the clear-headed reality check.
Since I’m not up on current PCIe max-outs, I’ll pick up on this:
[Walter Soyka] “Also, I’ll dispute that Thunderbolt is the high end: it’s 4x PCIe. Thunderbolt is one-quarter of the high-end of expansion.”
… and ask:
What are the current technologies that put the heaviest demands on the PCIe channels? What needs 4x? What needs more?
I’m interested because it’s seems to be hinted at often (here) that Thunderbolt replaces the need for expansion slots.
Franz.
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Fast Raid cards (eg Areca’s latest controllers) are PCIe 8, so are 10Gig Ethernet Cards and some Fibre HBAs. And, of course, all graphics cards are 16x. This all should work in a 4x slot but it’s not max performance.
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[Franz Bieberkopf] “What are the current technologies that put the heaviest demands on the PCIe channels? What needs 4x? What needs more? I’m interested because it’s seems to be hinted at often (here) that Thunderbolt replaces the need for expansion slots.”
Some RAID cards, notably the ATTO ExpressSAS H680, use 8x PCIe. Graphics cards use 16x PCIe.
4x PCIe 2.0 is still a lot of bandwidth — 2,000 MB/s one-way (4,000 MB/s bi-directional). To put that in perspective, though, 4K video at 24fps and 16bpc (or half-float) requires about 2,335 MB/s.
Meanwhile, PCIe 3.0 (which doubles PCIe 2.0’s bandwidth) is here, work on PCIe 4.0 has begun, and the PCI Special Interest Group has announced the formation of a Cable Workgroup, ostensibly to develop an external PCIe 3.0 standard and compete with Thunderbolt.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
[Bill Davis] “Sooner or later all the folks who come here to moan about how Apple has ruined their lives will go to the Premier and Avid boards to piss and moan about how badly they are being treated there – because complaining without proffering constructive alternatives is just a manifestation of the “victim” state of mind, nothing more.”
[Bill Davis] “”Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions.”-Justice O’Connor”
As always Bill, your good for a chuckle in the morning.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf -
[Walter Soyka] “Some RAID cards, notably the ATTO ExpressSAS H680, use 8x PCIe. Graphics cards use 16x PCIe.
4x PCIe 2.0 is still a lot of bandwidth — 2,000 MB/s one-way (4,000 MB/s bi-directional). To put that in perspective, though, 4K video at 24fps and 16bpc (or half-float) requires about 2,335 MB/s.
Meanwhile, PCIe 3.0 (which doubles PCIe 2.0’s bandwidth) is here, work on PCIe 4.0 has begun, and the PCI Special Interest Group has announced the formation of a Cable Workgroup, ostensibly to develop an external PCIe 3.0 standard and compete with Thunderbolt.”
I assume you are talking uncompressed 4k there, right Walter? Which we can probably say is a fraction of the total video marketplace. If working with uncompressed 4k, are those people working with macs for real time playback at this point, even today?
So I guess we can all agree that an external Thunderbolt future is looking doable, it’s just the highest of the throughput is just out of reach?
Right now, we are at the fw400 of Thunderbolt?
What is interesting about Thunderbolt is that the sheer amount of protocols and devices that it can connect to and transfer data, and it’s not just limited to storage/raw data that conforms to fw protocols AND if a device is slower in the chain, theoretically, it won’t slow down the whole system, also unlike firewire.
Jeremy
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Firewire was a major breakthrough but from the get go it could not handle “professional” video such as DigiBeta input nor was it used for RAID.
Thunderbolt, can handle Uncompressed and has allowed greater RAID0 video throughput.
Firewire had limited high end professional use.
[Walter Soyka] “Also, I’ll dispute that Thunderbolt is the high end: it’s 4x PCIe.”
Which why I say the MacPro replacement will still have at least one and probably two PCI3 for GPU as one would want those to be 16 lane.
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Keep in mind that Thunderbolt has 100GBits/s in its roadmap. It’ll be a couple of years but that’s why I’ve mentioned Apple will be using it as a hood for updates from the current Thunderbolt computers including my suspected MacPro replacement.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “So I guess we can all agree that an external Thunderbolt future is looking doable, it’s just the highest of the throughput is just out of reach?”
I am trying to make two assertions in my conversation with Craig:
- Darren was onto something when he compared Thunderbolt and Firewire, as Thunderbolt has more in common with Firewire than not.
- Thunderbolt is fast and cheap, but it is not high-end expansion.
I agree with Craig 100% that Thunderbolt is a huge step forward and that it will change the way we work. CPUs are now “fast enough” for video editorial, so raw computation matters less than connectivity for NLE users today.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
[Craig Seeman] “Thunderbolt, can handle Uncompressed and has allowed greater RAID0 video throughput.”
Because it’s repackaged PCIe. We’ve been able to do this for years internally; the advancement is hooking this onto smaller, cheaper, lower-powered devices to radically extend their capabilities.
What’s cool about Thunderbolt isn’t how fast it is — because it’s not nearly as fast as other internal expansion options. The game changer here is that it’s external.
[Craig Seeman] “Keep in mind that Thunderbolt has 100GBits/s in its roadmap. It’ll be a couple of years but that’s why I’ve mentioned Apple will be using it as a hood for updates from the current Thunderbolt computers including my suspected MacPro replacement.”
And back to Darren’s point, Firewire had FW3200 on its roadmap.
Craig, I don’t think we really disagree on all that much here. Thunderbolt is cool. Thunderbolt will change the gear editors can buy.
The main point I’m trying to make here is that Thunderbolt is cheap, enables the use of cheaper computers overall, and is fast enough for now — but it’s not “high-end expansion.”
In our comparison with FW400, you rightly point out that later SCSI variants outperformed Firewire. I’m pointing out the same thing with respect to Thunderbolt: it’s currently outperformed by 8x and 16x PCIe 2.0 as well as PCIe 3.0 (all shipping today).
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events
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