Quicktime Only 8 bit in CC? Is PPro is unsuable for professional finishing and online?

[Kevin Monahan]

Hi Marcus,
Have you set up your preview files to be in a 10 bit codec with Maximum Bit Depth checked? See this article: https://blogs.adobe.com/VideoRoad/2011/08/prores-workflow-in-premiere-advanced-options.html

Thanks,
Kevin

Kevin Monahan
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[Marcus Smith]

Hi Kevin,

That blog link is for CS6, and the settings have changed a little since then, but yes, Maximum color depth is selected but makes no difference.

This is true for all flavors of Quicktime.

Are you running OSX PPro CC? I’m wondering if this is only a MAC issue.

Thanks,

Marcus.

[Walter Soyka]

I just tried it here.

Premiere Pro CC 7.0.1 running on Mac OS 10.8.4 is correctly output 10-bit ProRes MOV files for me.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events

[Marcus Smith]

Thanks for checking Walter,

I wonder how are you verifying your output is not truncated to 8 bit? Visually or with an external 10 bit vectorscope? Unless your working in high contrast gradients the difference is almost impossible to see with your eye.

I have created an example project with a gradient and included a Pro Res output render so you can see clearly the banding we are getting.

You can download it here:

https://www.hightail.com/download/OGhlb2VBMm1veE9ybHNUQw

So far the only codec inside PPro CC that does not introduce banding is the DNX440 one. Which is an incredibly slow codec to render, making PPro unrealistic to use as an online tool.

I would really appreciate anyone who has the time to check the project and post your results.

Thanks!

Marcus.

[Walter Soyka]

[Marcus Smith] “I wonder how are you verifying your output is not truncated to 8 bit? Visually or with an external 10 bit vectorscope? Unless your working in high contrast gradients the difference is almost impossible to see with your eye. “

Mathematically.

I created a grayscale synthetic test pattern with four bars with the following 10-bit values: 32, 64, 96, 128, and saved it as a 10-bit DPX file. When this file is processed at 10b or higher, these values are preserved. When this file is processed at 8b, instead of the full four bars, we should get two bars due to insufficient precision, with the 8-bit values 0 and 1.

I imported the DPX file into Premiere and output it to ProRes with a variety of settings.

I checked the outputs by loading the files into After Effects, making sure the project was set to 16 bpc, loading each file into the viewer, and cranking the exposure up 16 or 17 stops to count the bars. This can also be confirmed by hovering the mouse over the image and watching the RGB values in the info window.

When Render Maximum Depth is checked, I get four bars in my output files, indicated 10-bit output. When it is not checked, I get two bars in my output files, indicating 8-bit output.

You can download my test project and output here [link].

[Marcus Smith] “So far the only codec inside PPro CC that does not introduce banding is the DNX440 one. Which is an incredibly slow codec to render, making PPro unrealistic to use as an online tool. I would really appreciate anyone who has the time to check the project and post your results.”

DNxHD 440 is an RGB format; the others are chroma-subsampled Y’CbCr. Perhaps your test pattern is showing other flaws unrelated to bit depth.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events

[Daniel Frome]

OSX displays ONLY support 8 bit output. That is universal, hard and fast.

If you use a 10 bit video I/O product, the 10 bits are properly displayed on whatever output device it routs to. However, whenever you view something on your OSX monitor it will be 8 bit. That is a limitation of OSX.

I don’t know all the details of your setup, but I know this much is true.

[Walter Soyka]

[Daniel Frome] “OSX displays ONLY support 8 bit output. That is universal, hard and fast. If you use a 10 bit video I/O product, the 10 bits are properly displayed on whatever output device it routs to. However, whenever you view something on your OSX monitor it will be 8 bit. That is a limitation of OSX. I don’t know all the details of your setup, but I know this much is true.”

To be totally clear, Daniel is saying that OS X only supports 8-bit display via the GPU.

This does not affect 10-bit monitoring via a video I/O adapter, and this does not affect 10-bit file output.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events

[Marcus Smith]

Thanks again guys for responding,

Daniel, I’m viewing my output through a Black Magic Decklink via SDI on a Sony BVM HD CRT, so its not that.

Walter I appreciate you sending that file through, the link doesn’t work however.

Thanks!

Marcus.

[Walter Soyka]

[Walter Soyka] “DNxHD 440 is an RGB format; the others are chroma-subsampled Y’CbCr. Perhaps your test pattern is showing other flaws unrelated to bit depth.”

For clarity, I think the problem has nothing to do with Premiere Pro CC — it’s that your test pattern is not faithfully reproducible in ProRes 422, or maybe any 10-bit YUVish format. I just tried a one-second dissolve on your 16-bit TIF file on Smoke and it produces the same banded output with ProRes.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events

[Walter Soyka]

[Marcus Smith] “Walter I appreciate you sending that file through, the link doesn’t work however. Also did have an opportunity to check to project I sent through?”

Sorry, mate. I edited the post and now the link actually works.

I did test your file, and I see the same thing as you do — but as above, I think that your test pattern will band with ProRes 422 with any system. I tried it on my Smoke system, too, and got the same banded result.

If you try non-synthetic footage, or if you change the design of your test pattern to eliminate the other variables, you’ll see Premiere outputs clean 10-bit ProRes.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events