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Questions before Update
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Oh, so now the argument for FCPX is that it’s cheaper?
Elsewhere and always you have positioned yourself, and all others trying to learn FCPX, as being open to the new, not hamstrung by the restrictions of the past. I know these are not your exact words, but I think they are fairly representative.
Given that, I’m curious as to why your desire to learn and expand your boundaries ends with Apple. Your thrilled to be trying out and proselytizing for FCPX but seem to have no interest in giving the same consideration to Adobe or Avid. I mean integration with AE and Photoshop is not something to just sneer at, yet it seems the only new program you’re interested in is FCPX.
Just curious.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions -
[Bill Davis] “he best tool benches feature a broad range of tool choices that the artist can pick and choose in order to scale their efforts to the scope of the tasks at hand. Something I suspect your grandfather would have understand perfectly.”
Oh, agreed. He also was pretty good at recognizing actual innovation, as opposed to gimmicks and poor design tarted up as “the future.”
[Bill Davis] “FCP-X represents a very different choice.
That can be nothing but good for editing in general, whether it’s adopted by millions, thousands, hundreds or dozens.”
I’ve got no problem with that as long as they know what they are actually getting.
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As to your comment:
Most other NLEs punched out way more realtime power than FCP ever did, on the exact same Mac.The oddity is that even if all could agree that in all cases this was universally and strictly true, what was the barrier that caused it to always remain substantially less successful than FCP-Legacy in it’s market share? Was this just a re-do of the BetaMax is superior to VHS, but the market doesn’t care? Was there a differentiator like “whole movie” capacity that drove the success of one over the other? Interesting questions, but the fact remains that FCP-X was the most widely used world wide editing platform when they did the rebuild. I suspect that without the overall ascendence of Apple as a business, this risk would not have been conceivable. So thanks to Jobs betting successfully on iPods/ITMS, iPhones and iPads, the company had the luxury to take a flyer on the FCP re-invention game. And so we win with a new, if controversial choice. Good. I like more choice.
Heated responses to my posts? Yep, gotten TOTALLY used to that. Some are interesting. Many feel “knee jerk” to me, as if the respondent is still doing what I did initially – give no weight to what might be true inside what was ticking me off. But that’s how modern debate works. You pick and choose weakness and try to address that – and ignore whatever you can’t take apart and address as easily. I’m TRYING not to do that. But I suspect I’m regularly failing at it. That’s OK. Opinions that are never tested have a larger chance of being exposed as baseless over time. Those that are challenged and can be defended are the ones that stick around. I’m okay with that.
As to the idea you expressed in “if you’ve only ever known…” I understand the concept. But I dismissed trying to be the “systems analyist type” long ago. In that game you need an overview of the strengths and weaknesses of all the players. If you’re in the seat doing the work, your interest can stop at the point you find a tools that satisfies your personal needs.
I’ve had that since April of 1999. FCP. I guess I should be the first guy to be pissed that they changed it since my entire career has largely been based around it. But I’m having the time of my life learning the new thinking that X is built on. Its FASCINATING to me. And I like fascinating, challenging, and things that shake my life up (in moderation, of course.)
Like the say, YMMV.
Totally agree with your last line, however. FCP-X instantly drove savings into the Pro NLE market. Hope it lasts.
“Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions.”-Justice O’Connor
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We were doing fine until I got to your last line.
Which to my eye, seemed to imply “those who disagree with my perceptions are merely too dumb to understand what’s good for them.”
I can’t believe that’s what you meant to say.
So I’ll ignore it.
“Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions.”-Justice O’Connor
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Herb,
If you are correct it will sputter, lag, fail to gain any market traction and fail. Because it’s an extremely competitive world out there.
If I am, it will succeed because the larger market wants something different than you do than the things you keep relentlessly complaining about in tone and particulars aren’t the core of why people and companies adopt software into their lives.
We’ll know in a couple of years, won’t we?
“Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions.”-Justice O’Connor
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[Bill Davis] “We were doing fine until I got to your last line.
Which to my eye, seemed to imply “those who disagree with my perceptions are merely too dumb to understand what’s good for them.”
I can’t believe that’s what you meant to say.
So I’ll ignore it.
“Bill, you shouldn’t ignore it. You should actually listen to it. How do you possibly get the above bit of foulness from “I’ve got no problem with that as long as they know what they are actually getting.” If that is really what you eyes say, they need serious checking.
What I’m saying, Bill–just so you get it–is that there is so much bloviated misinformation floating around about the super zippy life-altering coolness of FCP X, that I think it is important that forums like this exist so that people can learn the short comings as well as the strengths of FCP X so that they can make an informed decision. Does that make it clearer for you?
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Herb,
It may be difficult for you to understand this, but I think about more than one thing when I consider things.
It’s price is ONE aspect that’s important at some times. Everybody understands that. Everybody.
Particularly, I suspect, in allowing students and other beginning editors access to tools. Most people who take a moment to think beyond the level of “I must pick this guys argument apart” understand that a $200 difference (let alone a $700 one!) is significant in some circumstances — including the one I described in the original discussion – choosing a modern laptop tool to do basic prep in card-based workflows.
I was making an apples to apples comparison in response to someone saying that other tools have similar speed and features. Fine. In a targeted discussion of limited to feature performance that alleges that two products have much in the way of parity – why is noting that one of those options has a superior price point anything but useful?
If you feel the price difference is fully justified by additonal features, argue that and tlet the budget customer reading here decide if those extra features are worth the extra price.
I suspect that would be more useful than just taking me to task because I bought up the factual reality of a price differential.
“Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions.”-Justice O’Connor
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Yes Herb.
You’ve been consistent to the point of dogmatic in your view about FCP-X.
It’s also clear that you are as hardened in your thinking as I am in the opposing view that this continues to be software that is new, interesting, and increasingly useful.
I’m more than a bit thankful that I’m on this side of the coin, because I believe that my thinking is a path to more understanding (and more fun along the path) than is yours. And I suspect you feel exactly the opposite. We’ll have to accept that.
Because we’re different people.
I am curious as to your continued coming back to a place about a topic you appear to have decided is fatally flawed and unworthy of your time. That confuses me. When I assess something as unworthy of my time, I leave it behind and go concentrate on things that I DO find worthy of my attention.
Maybe it’s just a microcosm of the current era where modern radio and the web teaches us that constant angst, confrontation, and clash is more satisfying to many than is civility and reasoned discussion from BOTH sides.
I think you and I may be stuck inside the classic “glass half full vs glass half empty” polarization.
In fact, I think you might be the the guy who used the term “Pollyanna” a while back to describe my view.
I’m totally OK with that, btw.
I kinda had a thing for Haley Mills when I was a lad and actually admired the character for coming to issues with a perspective that naturally gave new ideas and situations either a positive spin or at least the benefit of the doubt.
And I’d rather make mistakes by being too open, than make mistakes by being too closed.
You’re against FCP-X and I’m for it. I get it. As does everybody else here.
We should move along.
“Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions.”-Justice O’Connor
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[Bill Davis] – “It’s precisely that core re-alighment that lets it be so agile. And that means the new “lean and mean” build makes it less dependent on towers maxed out with ram and HD arrays, and more adaptable to laptops, tablets, and smart phones. ”
As long as people need speed (and time is money in this business) they will need ram, HD arrays and towers. The general trend before FCPX was towards more portable laptops, but as someone who uses both routinely, the smaller laptops, tablets and smartphones will not replace towers for sheer “getting the job done faster”. The tighter integration you espouse as one of the primary benefits would be great if it were a soup to nuts solution, but by Apples own words, they will be relying on third party implementation for a significant portion of functionality in the long run. I don’t see how this is system can remain “lean and mean” as it heads in this direction, not to mention the prospect of upgrades as we move forward with a host of vendors.
[Bill Davis] – “Right now, we’re working on about 30 interviews shot over 3 days of production in San Diego. With FCP-7 I would have had to Log and Transfer those cards and wait until everything was transcoded to ProRes before I could start editing. FCP-X allows me to open the Disc Images of the card files (6 cards in this case) into RAM and all the virtual footage is available INSTANTLY to start editing with. Hours and hours of prep saved. For all I know, other NLE’s might have had that before, but FCP-7 did not. Big efficiency win for me in this particular case.”
Not sure what files you are using, but we’ve been using XDCAM footage NATIVELY via Calibrated Software for some years now. Move the files from the camera to your hard drive and start editing. No conversions, no re-wraps, no pro-res. Makes the workflow efficient and keeps the data footprint small. FCPX can’t do this. XDCAM footage must be re-wrapped before it can be used doubling your data-footprint. While it’s true some of this takes place in the background, it still leaves you with twice the amount of footage to ultimately manage. Nothing new or revolutionary about FCPX here. And yes, PPro deals with XDCAM natively as well. Both are more efficient than FCPX.
[Bill Davis] – “I also think FCP-X’s “less timeline centric” orientation is going to win. The timeline itself comes from an era when nearly all professional deliverables were destined to be sold by time increments.”
Exactly how do you propose professional deliverables be sold? Even youtube has specifications on the commercials it runs before you get to see your selected content. I don’t think this notion is even remotely based in any future reality. As long as there are commercials, no matter WHAT the medium, there will be time increments to sell them. That is not going away, and frankly neither are commercials.
[Bill Davis] – “Part of the FCP-X bet is clearly that in the future less video will be consumed on TV and via plastic discs, and more as pure data on laptops, ipads, smart phones and thumb drives. ”
That is not the future, that is today. Every major NLE out there has some contingency for producing this type of deliverable, or at the very least, an established workflow to getting the product to one of a great many products to create it. FCPX didn’t invent digital media.
[Bill Davis] – “A company does it because they’re dissatisfied with the existing foundational construction. ”
In this case, they sacrificed functionality for “foundational construction”. Now they are going to rely on others to restore that functionality by banking on the “foundational construction”. The real question at this point is whether that “foundational construction” is going to even be relevant in 2 years when other NLE’s have had a chance to study the benefits you espouse and inevitably incorporate them into their products. You don’t think Adobe has people looking at integrating AV foundation? By the the time FCPX restores it’s functionality other NLE’s will have maintained theirs while incorporating these foundations. Which do you think will be better then?
Sadly, Apple has stacked the deck against themselves with this product. It appears you are advocating FCPX as the best option for those looking of an NLE. FCPX is absolutely great software for someone who does not need it to do a job. For everyone else, it is clearly lacking.
Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username – vidmarv -
[Bill Davis] – “in the light of where editing is most likely to be going for the greatest possible number of real-world broad spectrum editing tasks”
The implication is that by targeting the larger consumer market that an explosion of editing will follow. Well, the “revolution” has already happened (can you say iMovie?) and the common discovery was that no matter how “awesome” the tool might be, it still takes more time to edit video than most people care to spend learning and doing it. “Real-world broad spectrum editing task” require versatile tools that are flexible enough to conform to your ideas, not restrictive ones that limit your abilities by thinking for you. When desktop publishing came along you didn’t get an appreciable rise in the number of good designers. FCPX isn’t going to create a new market any more than iMovie has.
Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username – vidmarv
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