Questions about editing AVCHD (.mt2S) file in Vegas

[John Bean]

SMART RENDERING

The word you want is SMART RENDERING, not “lossless rendering”.

From the Sony Vegas Pro 11 website: https://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/vegaspro/io

“Utilize SMART RENDER technology for faster encoding of cuts-only projects, or projects with minimal changes. No generation loss occurs because video frames pass through the engine unaltered. When rendering to any of the following formats, unedited video frames are passed through without recompression (smart rendering):

DV AVI, DV MXF, IMX MXF (IMX 24p MXF is not supported for smart rendering), HD MXF, MPEG-2 (for files such as those from HDV and DVD camcorders), XDCAM EX.”

So SMART RENDERING does not apply to AVCHD encoded files. There are no NLE apps out there that can do “smart rendering” of AVCHD encoded files. It is due to the compression complexity of the AVC codec.

AVCHD Decoding

So Vegas has to decode (uncompress) your AVCHD videos. The major conversion changes result from having to do a color space conversion from YUV to RGB. Vegas works internally only in RGB. So, it’s this color space conversion that will cause the most *changes* from your original AVCHD source videos.

But it’s OK. Because you should do some color enhancements and corrections to your video anyways. If you want to view your videos on consumer TVs, computers, and devices, you have to do some color enhancements and corrections if you want your video to look good. For example, you need to make to make sure your video’s color levels are corrected to what Vegas’ calls STUDIO RGB LEVELS for best results on consumer devices.

RGB allows a lot more colors than the YUV colorspace of AVCHD videos. So when you are doing color enhancements and corrections, you will be adding NEW information to your videos. In others, you are improving your video!

For highest quality, set your project settings to 32-bit mode precision. The default is 8-bit.

RENDER-AS Codec

This all depends on what you want to do with your videos. Do you want to burn a Blu-ray of them? Do you want to just place them on a network media server? Upload to a website like YouTube? Maybe all the above!

If you have multiple uses for your videos, what you want to do is render your videos out to an INTERMEDIATE FILE. This will save you rendering time. And if you want, you can keep this INTERMEDIATE FILE for archiving when you are done.

So your two best options are: LOSSLESS vs VISUALLY LOSSLESS

LOSSLESS is what the name says it is. It will preserve your video as it is in Vegas exactly the same bit-by-bit as if you had rendered it out as an UNCOMPRESSED video. The difference between LOSSLESS and UNCOMPRESSED is that LOSSLESS will be a lot smaller. Anywhere from 3-6 times smaller depending on the complexity of your videos.

VISUALLY LOSSLESS codecs take advantage of the limitations of human vision. From a bit-by-bit perspective, VISUALLY LOSSLESS codes do not preserve the bits of an UNCOMPRESSED video exactly. From a human perspective, you cannot tell the difference. So a VISUALLY LOSSLESS encoded video will be *human visually* equal-to a LOSSLESS and UNCOMPRESSED video – but not the same bit-by-bit. The advantage is that a VISUALLY LOSSLESS encoded video will have a much smaller file size than a LOSSLESS encoded version of the same video.

After rendering out your video from Vegas as either LOSSLESS or VISUALLY LOSSLESS, you can then further re-encode your video to whatever format you need it to be. Be it for Blu-ray, network streaming, or YouTube.

FREE OPEN-SOURCE Options for LOSSLESS: Lagarith or Huffyuv

Options for VISUALLY LOSSLESS: Cineform or Avid DNxHD

Cineform comes with Vegas. And I believe both Cineform and DNxHD are *free* but you will need to check with their LICENSE about usage, especially in the case of commercial or public viewing usage.

For your home computer and network, you then should re-encode this INTERMEDIATE video to an AVC (H264) encoded video using either a MP4 or a MOV container. Vegas has several great options for MP4. Just start a new project and import your INTERMEDIATE video. Then pick the desired matching template for MP4.

To get an AVC (H264) encoded MOV, you are best to use another application to encode your INTERMEDIATE video for you because Vegas will not be able to do it with its Quicktime (MOV) encoder.

For YouTube and other websites, you then can upload this MP4 or MOV without much problems. Check the max bit-rate requirements of the website.

For Blu-ray authoring, you are best to let your authoring software encode it for you.

For example, for the current version of DVD Architect (Pro 5.2), for the highest quality, you will need to let DVD Architect encode your INTERMEDIATE video. DVD Architect will not accept any Sony Vegas encoded .M2TS files with bitrates greater than 16 Mb/s – even if you use the DVD Architect templates. I’m not sure if this is a BUG or a current limitation of DVD Architect.

ARCHIVING

If you plan on keeping your source M2TS video files, you can just archive your Vegas project file. And then, if in the future, you want to re-render, just re-run your Vegas project file.

If you don’t want to keep your source M2TS video files, you can archive your INTERMEDIATE FILE instead. After you delete your source M2TS video files however, your Vegas project file is useless now.

Good luck!

[Alan Yen]

Hi John… Thanks very much for taking the time to asnwer my question. I might have wrote it wrong in my original question, but I am going to use the Vegas Movie Studio HD Platinum 11 for my video editing, not the Vegas Pro.

I know the Vegas Pro has a lot more professional tool. But its a bit too expansive for me. Here is what I am planning to do…. I basically is using the camcorder to shot HD video for family events only. And after I edit the footage (usually simple cutting or add text for date, location etc.). I am just keeping the result files in my network hard drive so I can play it on computer, my TV, or planning to use the files in Corel VideoStudio to make AVCHD disk (it could use the .m2ts files, and burn it on DVD disk to make it a so called ACVHD disk, since I don’t have a blue-ray burner). I do not need to upload it unto youtube or other online service, they are for my own home collection only.

last month, I actually tried to edit and save/render a short .m2ts video using Corel VideoStudio X4(I have been using it for a while), Adobe Premier (trial version), and this Vegas Movie Studio HD Platinum 11(trial version). And the result from Vegas is the best of the 3, that’s why I decided to buy it. (With the other two programs, the result is kind of granny, and the color or texture on things like face or clothes, it looks very artificial… don’t know exactly how to describe it)

But I still want to make sure I could have the edited file as close to the original as possible. So…

(1) If I am using only the Vegas Movie Studio HD Platinum 11, does the YUV to RGB, and 32-bit mode precision that you described in Vegas pro11 does still apply here?

(2) What “category” exactly is the .m2ts file under? I thought .m2ts means “mpeg2 transport stream”, that’s why I first assume that I read somewhere that smart rendering works with mpeg2, so it will work with .m2ts… guess not..

(3)I guess I could live with just the Visually Lossless rendering. So you are saying, after I convert my .m2ts files into the Visually Lossless format with let’s say the Cineform (since I hear it all the time), what extension will it become? It’s that I am a bit confused about this Cineform… many places that mentioned it (even in Vegas) they keep refering to 3D video, but I just want to do simple 2D cutting eidit on my home video. So where do I get this Cineform converter? or is it already one of the format in Vegas Movie Studio HD Platinum 11 that I could just simplely open a .mt2s file and select the Cinform to convert it?

(4) I read it somewhere earlier that Cineform convert the file into their own special .avi format. But whatever format it became, I will then be able to use this as intermediate format to do all kinds of editing in Vegas(in addition to simple cutting), and then render it as either normal mpeg, avi or .m2ts, and the resulting file will looks almost like orignial?

Like I mentioned earlier, I am not going to do professional work, just want to find a “not too complicate” procedures to do simple editing on my home video and still be able to play it back on my computer or TV with near the original quality.

Thanks again for helping an amature like me…lol… But it has been bugging me for a while…. I really appreciate your help!

[John Bean]

[Alan] (1) If I am using only the Vegas Movie Studio HD Platinum 11, does the YUV to RGB, and 32-bit mode precision that you described in Vegas pro11 does still apply here?

Using this comparison chart: https://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/moviestudiope/compare

It doesn’t look like Movie Studio HD has 32-bit floating point precision. So with Movie Studio there’s going to be a YUV to RGB 8-bit [integer only] color conversion precision.

[Alan] (2) What “category” exactly is the .m2ts file under? I thought .m2ts means “mpeg2 transport stream”, that’s why I first assume that I read somewhere that smart rendering works with mpeg2, so it will work with .m2ts… guess not..

M2TS is just media *container* format currently used for storing HD content. Most notably, it is used for Blu-ray media streams and AVCHD streams found in many cameras.

Remember that HD content can also be encoded in MPEG-2. A lot of Blu-rays still use the older MPEG-2 codec. M2TS is just an upgrade version of the older MPEG Transport stream (TS). That is where the “MPEG-2 Transport Stream (M2TS)” name comes frome.

Inside this M2TS *container*, it can contain video, audio, text, and menu streams. In the case of M2TS from a camera, it will have video and audio streams. So to a program like Vegas, it extracts the video and audio streams from this container to work with it. And the video stream codec is AVCHD (H264). Which Vegas cannot do *SMART RENDERING* on.

[Alan] (3)I guess I could live with just the Visually Lossless rendering. So you are saying, after I convert my .m2ts files into the Visually Lossless format with let’s say the Cineform (since I hear it all the time), what extension will it become? It’s that I am a bit confused about this Cineform… many places that mentioned it (even in Vegas) they keep refering to 3D video, but I just want to do simple 2D cutting eidit on my home video. So where do I get this Cineform converter? or is it already one of the format in Vegas Movie Studio HD Platinum 11 that I could just simplely open a .mt2s file and select the Cinform to convert it?

A typical media file will contain a *video* and *audio* stream. That is why you need a *container*. This container encapsulates both these *video* and *audio* streams to make a single file. Each type of media container is different in the way they encapsulate their streams.

So Cineform is just a codec for encoding *video streams* only. It is not a media container like M2TS. It can be used to encode (compress) your project’s *video streams* regardless if its 2D or 3D.

So when you render out your project, you need to select a media container format that supports the Cineform video codec. AVI supports the Cineform video codec.

So if you wanted Cineform as your video codec, you would select the [Microsoft] AVI option as your media container, and then select Cineform as your video codec [format]. You then also have the option to select what codec you want for your audio stream as well. The default for AVI is UNCOMPRESSED PCM 16-bit.

You will need to check to see if Movie Studio HD Platinum 11 already comes with the Cineform codec. I know that Vegas Pro 11 comes with Cineform. Again, in RENDER-AS, select Microsoft AVI, then look under “Video Format” to see if Cineform is one of the available codecs you have.

If you don’t have it, just Google for it! Download it and install it.

So yes, you can just import your M2TS files into your Vegas Movie Studio and simply render it out as an AVI using the Cineform video codec, if that’s all you want to do!

[Alan] (4) I read it somewhere earlier that Cineform convert the file into their own special .avi format. But whatever format it became, I will then be able to use this as intermediate format to do all kinds of editing in Vegas(in addition to simple cutting), and then render it as either normal mpeg, avi or .m2ts, and the resulting file will looks almost like orignial?

Cineform doesn’t have its own *special* AVI format. So, if you follow, Cineform is just a *video codec* and AVI is just a media *container*. Select AVI is your media container, then select Cineform as your video codec. Then select the codec you want for your audio stream as well.

Yes, Cineform is commonly used as the *video codec* for an INTERMEDIATE FILE because it is VISUALLY LOSSLESS. A human being can not tell the difference between a LOSSLESS (or UNCOMPRESSED) video and a VISUALLY LOSSLESS encoded version of the same video. So to reduce harddrive storage space, people will use CINEFORM as the *video codec* for their INTERMEDIATE FILE, and use AVI as the media container.

If you are not doing any further processing beyond rendering it out to just ONE format, you can just keep your original M2TS files for archiving and skip the Cineform video encoding stage.

MPEG-2 is the video codec that is used for .MPEG files. This video codec is the only option if you want to make a DVD, ie. standard definition 720×480

MPEG-2 is a LOSSY video codec. AVCHD is a LOSSY video codec. LOSSY is not the same as LOSSLESS.

When you use a LOSSY video codec, depending on what your settings are, the resulting render-as video may not appear VISUALLY LOSSLESS. That is, if you use low quality settings, you will notice compression and upscaling artifacts. Your video will not look similar to the original.

A side not here: Cineform is *technically* a LOSSY video codec. It’s just that Cineform does a great job compressing without any human noticeable artifacts. That is why people call Cineform a VISUALLY LOSSLESS codec. But technically (bit-by-bit), it is a LOSSY video codec.

The two main settings you will most likely be concerned with are:
1. FRAME SIZE
2. BIT RATE

To ensure the highest quality, you want to make sure you are using a FRAME SIZE that is equal-to your original video files. And you want to make sure you are using a BIT-RATE setting that is *atleast* equal-to your original videos.

(If you want to make a Blu-ray or DVD, there are restrictions to what your settings can be. But that is another subject for later on.)

Here is my suggested workflow for you:

For *single* HOME use only:

[CAMERA]->M2TS files->[edit in VEGAS]->[render-as high-quality MP4]->MP4 file

Archive your M2TS files along with your Vegas project files into your backup harddrive. Use the rendered MP4 file for viewing.

Make sure your PROJECT SETTINGS match your frame size and frame rate of your source M2TS files.

When you RENDER-AS a MP4, use one of Vegas MP4 TEMPLATES that matches your project settings. For best quality, then make sure the BIT-RATE is equal-to or greater than source M2TS video’s BIT-RATE.

Here is an example for MULTIPLE USAGE:

[CAMERA]->M2TS files->[edit in VEGAS]->[render-as AVI using Cineform for video and uncompressed PCM-16 for audio]->AVI file

Then, for *home* use:
AVI file->[start new project in Vegas]->[render-as high-quality MP4]->MP4 file

For making a DVD:
AVI file->[start new project in Vegas]->[render-as MPEG-2 DVD-quality]->MPEG-2 file

For making a Blu-ray:
AVI file->[start new project in Vegas]->[render-as Blu-ray AVCHD or MPEG-2]->M2TS file

For uploading to YouTube:
AVI file->[start new project in Vegas]->[render-as YouTube quality MP4]->MP4 file

Then as before, you can archive your original source M2TS files along with your Vegas project files and delete the AVI file.

Or alternatively, you can just archive your AVI File and delete your original source M2TS files. Keeping the AVI saves you rendering time in the future, but then you lose the *originals*.

Hopefully, you have a clearer understanding of things now.

Cheers!

[Alan Yen]

Hi John! Thanks for the information, I was out of town for a few days….

I have read your reply a few times, and tried to render a short clip into various format as you suggested in the Vegas Movie Studio HD Platinum 11. Here is a few questions hope you could help me a bit again… 🙂

(1) After I installed the Cineform codec, the Vegas 11 finally let me render the file into Cinform AVI. But the clip is only a 15sec file (original .mts file is only about 50mb, and I also rendered into .m2t as comparison.), and I was surprised that the resulting .m2t became about 55mb, but the Cinform AVI file became 500mb! So that means the cinform AVI file would take up about 2G per min?!….

this is the detail spec I used when rendering….

for the .m2ts:
output type: mpeg-2
1920X1080, frame rate: 29.97,
B-frames: 2 (don’t know what this mean)
Filed order: upper filed first
Variable bit-rate with average at 25m/bps

for the Cinform:(I am actually just use the default setting)
1920X1080, frame rate: 29.97,
Pixel aspect ratio:1
interleave every .25 sec
render alpha channel
Encode format: YUV:4:2:2
Encode Quality: Filmscan1 (it has “low, midiem, high, filmscan1, filmscan2, keying” as possible choice)

(2) Many file type has a “Field Order” option, and it has “none-progressive scan, upper field first, lower field first”. Does it makes any different which one I choose?

(3) In regarding to the bit-rate. My Canon HFM40 can take HD at max of 25m, but it said something about this kind of file can not be saved into an AVCHD discs, so I have been using the second highest bit-rate to shoot my video, which is 17m. In your previous message, you mentioned about the format I want to render into, the bit-rate should be at least the same as the original. My question is, setting it at the same rate is enough, right? If I set it at higher than the original, what would it help since there is no additional info in the original anyway?

Also, they usually let you chose to have constant bit-rate or variable bit-rate (with the average as the bit-rate that I want). Is there any difference I choose constant or variable?

(4) I have herd people saying the .mts, .m2t, and .m2ts files are all the same, is it true?

Because I saw the selections under “render as”, there is a MainConcept MPEG2 format(creats .m2t files), and also a Sony AVC/MVC format that creats .m2ts files (this one produce a slightly smaller file). I am wodering if I am saving some of the files back to these format after simple cutting only (I tried to save as both, and the results are visually almost the same as original), does it matter which one I choose?

Thanks very much for your help!

[Alan Yen]

Sorry about this, I got an e-mail saying there is new reply to my post, but when I click to the link, there is no new reply. Don’t know if it got cut off or other reason…

[Martin Szmki]

I’ve got the same problem, to use “smart rendering” at AVCHD in Vegas.

But then i’ve found that Cyberlink Power Director do that…
(version 11 for sure working for me). It’s called SVRT. It render only this part of movie which needs it.

https://www.cyberlink.com/support/product-faq-content.do?id=12763&prodId=4