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pro’s and cons of both 23.98 and 29,97 in one sequence?
I ask the members of the community to ponder this question with many variables to come up with the best solution to the problem.
Here it goes.
Basically a documentary was shot by an amature DP on a dvx 100A 24P and half way through shooting the 70 hours of footage, the camera reverted to 29.97i and the DP didn’t notice. To make a long story short – of 70 hours of footage 35 hours is 23.98 and the other 35 hours is 29.97i.
On a movie with a big budget, and money to burn, all the 29.97 masters would be converted (costly) to 23.98 and create a new set of masters – but this is not an option. So basically we must cut the movie, use media manager to re capture the 29.97 stuff with handles, then get just the pieces in the cut transfered to 23.98 via tyrnex or alchamist and simply put the pieces back into the cut, slip or slide as needed, and there you go.
Here is the question.
What are the advantages/disadvantages of cutting the sequence in 23.98 vs. 29.97? My inclination is to cut at 23.98 – allow FCP to pull out frames of the 29.97 stuff during cutting as it may (it will look crappy but hey) to make sure that one half of the project’s timecode and aframes will be dead on. Then once we convert the 29.97 worry about slipping or moving a frame due to conversion of the 29.97 material. BUT the director is concerned about doing this because if it is cut at 23.98 and we let FCP pull out frames, its going to looks studdery and crappy, and he can’t screen it for comments legitimatly. If we cut in 29.97 and allow FCP to add in the frames to the 23.98 material – potentially BOTH the 23.98 and 29.97 material could be off a frame on every cut due to missed a frame or conversion.
Obviously sound is on hold until conversion and lock due to this problem – but I thought I would get the oppinion of the comunnity of the advantages and dissadvantes of cutting the sequence in 23.98 vs 29.97 given these circumstances.Has anyone delt with this before? and what did you do – what were your problems.
Thanks in advance
Scott
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5 Replies
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24P or 24PA? 24P runs at 29.97 fps. it just is progressive and simulates a 24fps frame rate.
What is your ultimate output going to be? Tape? Then 29.97. DVD? Film? Web? Then edit 23.98.
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[Shane Ross] “24P or 24PA? 24P runs at 29.97 fps. it just is progressive and simulates a 24fps frame rate.
What is your ultimate output going to be? Tape? Then 29.97. DVD? Film? Web? Then edit 23.98.”The frame rate for 24p is 23.98 in video and it does not matter whether it is 24p or 24pA,
However the NTSC tape will always be 29.97, without exception.I would say cut in 29.97 if the DP need to go back to film deal with the problem then, if it is just for video it will be fine without the hassle.
From IBC
Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL -
Yes, they both can be reverse telecined to run at 23.98. 24PA is designed to be used ONLY for 23.98, while 24P is designed to run at both 29.97 and 23.98
Shane’s Stock Answer #23
Quoting Ken Stone’s site found at:
https://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/24p_in_FCP_nattress.html
24p Normal
When shooting in 24p Normal, the camera is adding normal standard 3:2 pulldown to the video, which results in 24p footage designed to work with any non-linear editing suite and it will play back and look good directly to any NTSC monitor. You can use 24p Normal footage just like normal video from any DV camera, and everything will work fine, but obviously, the footage will have a film look to it. If you -
Scott,
On a big budget show this problem most likely would have not occurred and if it did it would be reason for a reshoot.
The sad reality is major mistakes like this occur on very low budget jobs where such costly errors cannot be afforded. The DP or camera operator needs to be made aware of this costly error so that he or she never does it again and they fully understand how much this mistake will end up costing the production in addition to their own professional reputation for the sloppy work they did.
Now for the reality check. If this project really has a chance for a film out more money would have been spent on the crew to avoid this problem in the first place.
Since money is a major issue here I highly speculate that this project will go straight to video even for entry into film festivals and never see the light of day on a film out.The money saved on not hiring a professional crew to avoid this mess will be wasted on converting all the 29.97 footage to 23.98. So I have to honestly ask if the producers of this project could not afford to hire a professional crew to avoid this costly error how can they all of a sudden afford to try to fix this mess in post. The answer is they mostly like can’t and will not once they found out the small fortune it will cost to run the footage thru a teranex.
So why not face reality and cut the show in 29.97 for both the 23.98 material and the 29.97 thereby working on a common timebase sequence and then reverse the entire show back to 23.98 if and when the show ever needs to get out to film.
In conclusion fire the DP or camera operator who let this major F@#$%%Up go by.
Such mistakes are to be considered the “dark side of digital film making”.Tony Salgado
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If you shot 24pA for the 24p stuff, edit in a 23.98fps timeline and use my Standards Converter on the selects from the 29.97fps stuff to convert them to 24p.
If you shot 24p Normal, edit in a 29.97fps timeline and use Film Effects to make the 29.97fps stuff look like 24p.
Graeme
– http://www.nattress.com – Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP
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