ProRes playback on QT player vs FCP Timeline

[Dale Launer]

It was HDCAM captured via Cinewave.

But I think it has something to do with the difference between the QT player and the FCP.

Someone said it was RGB vs YUV – not sure exactly how this plays out. The clip is YUV – is the QT player doing a (sloppy) YUV to RGB conversion or…?

Dale Launer
writer.filmmaker
G5 Cinewave HD Huge

[Gary Adcock]

[David Roth Weiss] “So far all of the ProRes conversions and exports that I’ve done during my testing have looked very much like the original files”

funny
my ProRes software conversions from DVCPROHD material all have the incorrect sq pixel aspect ratio.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

[David Roth weiss]

[gary adcock] “my ProRes software conversions from DVCPROHD material all have the incorrect sq pixel aspect ratio.”

The tests I did were in fact down conversions to SD from DVCProHD.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Post-production Supervisor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

[Sean Oneil]

I just put a QT player window of a clip right next to the FCP canvas showing the same clip. They are 100% identical.

Make sure your sequence settings are correct (Make sure its set to render 10-bit YUV), and make sure you have QT 7.1.6.

You said you use a Cinewave. That could be related to your problem. I don’t think that card is supported anymore.

[Dale Launer]

“Make sure your sequence settings are correct (Make sure its set to render 10-bit YUV), and make sure you have QT 7.1.6.”

I do have the latest and greatest QT update. And why would the render settings affect playback of clip that has not been rendered (I’ll try it, but…)

“You said you use a Cinewave…That could be related to your problem.”

That’s in Cow bio – (trying to change that) Haven’t had the Cinewave for a few years (updated that). The files were originally captured via Cinewave. But that’s long gone. This rig (MacPro 8 core) runs “naked”.

Also – again – why would that make the same clip look different on the timeline vs the QT player?

“I just put a QT player window of a clip right next to the FCP canvas showing the same clip. They are 100% identical.”

I just did the same test and there is definitely a difference. Anyone can see it. I don’t know if it’s ProRes – I’ll trying another codec.

Is there a way to adjust playback preferences in QT?

Dale Launer
writer.filmmaker
G5 Aja Kona 2, Huge,
MacPro 8 core, Final Cut Studio 2

[Sean Oneil]

Sorry for all the suggestions that didn’t help. I thought the Cinewave might be relevant in case it was using it’s own hardware accelerated QT components or something like that.

Quicktime does bump up the gamma on playback for YUV formats. But FCP does the same thing since it just uses Quicktime components:
https://developer.apple.com/documentation/QuickTime/WhatsNewQT5/QT5NewChapt1/chapter_1_section_26.html

What kind of computer monitor do you have? Do you have QT Pro or Standard. That MIGHT have something to do with it, although I highly doubt it.

The only thing I can think at this point is that something is just buggy on your system. This might be worth a support call. I’d tell you to repair permissions, re-install Quicktime, delete your User Account and start a new one, etc. – maybe even re-install FCP 6 to re-install your ProRes components. But I don’t want you to waste time on a wild goose chase. All I can say is that I PROMISE you this problem is not occurring on my system with ProRes. QT and Canvas are 100% identical.

Sean

[Dale Launer]

I don’t think it is ProRes. In fact I KNOW it isn’t. I did the same thing with an uncompressed HD file – sure enough the gamma is different between the FCP and the QT.

So that’s the culprit. ProRes is innocent!

But something is askew. I’m going to try and see what my other rigs looks like – I have a dualie 2.5 G5 – I’ll give it a go tomorrow.

Dale Launer
writer.filmmaker
G5 Aja Kona 2, Huge,
MacPro 8 core, Final Cut Studio 2

[Dave Mac]

[Dale Launer] “I don’t think it is ProRes. In fact I KNOW it isn’t. I did the same thing with an uncompressed HD file – sure enough the gamma is different between the FCP and the QT.

So that’s the culprit. ProRes is innocent!

But something is askew. I’m going to try and see what my other rigs looks like – I have a dualie 2.5 G5 – I’ll give it a go tomorrow. “

Dale,

You are most likely correct that the issue isn’t related to anything within FCP 6. I am joining this thread a little late (it came back as one of my search results — I was trying to see if FCP 6 had changed in its use of the OS X system level color management).

If things haven’t changed since FCP 5, which appears to be the case, FCP 6 still doesn’t utilize system level (ColorSync) color management. This means that a monitor profile created for the Displays system preference isn’t really used by FCP.

Note that everything I am presenting has to do with the interaction of Mac OS X, FCP, and system level color management. It doesn’t apply to external broadcast monitors or to the video (signal) itself… 😉

FCP expects your monitor gamma to be set at 1.8. It internally adjusts the video images to display video at the proper gamma (see quote from Shake 4 manual at the bottom).

However, system level color management is used by other applications, such as QuickTime player. This would explain the gamma difference between viewing a QT movie in FCP (especially the Viewer, not necessarily the Canvas, as it displays lower quality) and QT Player. The difference in appearance will depend on your monitor gamma setting and how well calibrated your monitor(s) is(are), if at all.

I discovered this when using a HW monitor calibration device earlier this year. I decided to use a gamma of 2.2 in calibrating my monitor (to better match PCs, TVs, print work, etc.). After reading a bit about how FCP deals with system level color management, I discovered that FCP expects a monitor gamma of 1.8. I believe that the default “Cinema HD Display” profile uses a gamma of 1.8.

In my calibrating/profiling, I had discovered that my properly calibrated Cinema Displays (2 23″ ones of the newer variety) didn’t match my external broadcast monitor (which they never do exactly, but things were really different). I re-calibrated/profiled my Cinema Displays, setting the desired gamma to 1.8, and the results match surprisingly well with my external broadcast monitor.

So, to help minimize the disparity between QT Player and the Viewer in FCP, you would need to do a calibration of your computer displays using a gamma of 1.8 (and a color temperature of 6500K) to get the best results in FCP, preferably using a HW monitor calibration device (“hockey puck”).

Additionally, there is the “gamma quality” setting in FCP’s playback control preferences that affects the display of video within FCP. This feature apparently depends on the display card in your Mac. This is another variable that may be difficult to understand or control (display drivers, display card model, etc.).

Yeah, it’s a complicated mess… and we haven’t even touched on anything to do with gamma in the video signal (which isn’t really relevant here).

In summary, I guess the best practice would be to rely only on a well-calibrated external broadcast monitor (with proper setup, as applicable, and via proper HW connection). On your computer display(s), the only “close” enough way to see the actual look of video would be FCP’s Viewer, not QT Player. Neither should be used for a final/critical picture assessment, only a well-calibrated and properly calibrated external broadcast monitor.

I tried to avoid going into too much technical detail, in order not to mis-state things. For more information, I refer you to my primary references: Larry Jordan’s Web site (and newsletter — https://www.larryjordan.biz/) and Alexis Van Hurkman’s “Encyclopedia of Color Correction.”

Best regards,

Dave

From page 900 of the Shake 4 User Manual (available as a PDF from Apple):

Note: While it is possible to recalibrate Apple displays via the Display Calibrator
Assistant in Displays preferences, users should leave the gamma of their monitors to
the 1.8 Standard Gamma setting when working in Final Cut Pro. ColorSync settings are
not used by either Shake or Final Cut Pro for automatic color calibration or
compensation of any kind.

Gamma in QuickTime Movies
When importing a QuickTime movie created with Shake into Final Cut Pro, users may
notice a difference in the displayed gamma of the image. This is because Final Cut Pro
automatically lowers the gamma of sequences playing in the Canvas on your
computer

[Dave Mac]

[davemcc] “So, to help minimize the disparity between QT Player and the Viewer in FCP, you would need to do a calibration of your computer displays using a gamma of 1.8 (and a color temperature of 6500K) to get the best results in FCP, preferably using a HW monitor calibration device (“hockey puck”).”

This statement is a bit misleading. Because FCP doesn’t use ColorSync profiles (system level color management) and QT Player does (as does Safari), you’ll never get the same QT movie to look the same in both QT Player and FCP.

However, doing a good calibration of your computer monitors should help make the video look closer (in FCP’s Viewer) to that shown on an external broadcast monitor. I was able to get a really close match when using a HW (and SW) calibration procedure.

[Dantly Wyatt]

“I don’t think it is ProRes. In fact I KNOW it isn’t. I did the same thing with an uncompressed HD file – sure enough the gamma is different between the FCP and the QT. ”

I just did a little bit of research & testing because I was having the same issue of quicktime & my FCP window having different appearances in perceived brightness/gamma. The culprit is (at least on my system) the color profile in the display settings in system preferences. I have a Macbook Pro 1.83 hooked to a 32″ vizio LCD. I noticed that when I changed the color profile to SMPTE-C, I got accurate perceived brightness/gamma between my quicktime window & FCP viewer window. ***while viewing through my 32″ vizio***, going through the color profile choices, I notice that they did NOT change the appearance of the quicktime window, but did change the appearance of my FCP viewer window. I found this to be odd but anyways…. I just found the color profile that made my FCP viewer & Quicktime window match in perceived brightness/gamma which happened to be SMPTE-C. (side effect note) My laptop & monitor now have two different color profiles but I don’t mind too much because I’m mirroring & I use the vizio 95% of the time.

Dantly Wyatt
Final Cut Pro 6.0.6
Macbook pro 1.83