“ProRes 4444: A Closer Look?”

[Jerry Hofmann]

There’s the white paper…

https://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/docs/Apple_ProRes_White_Paper_July_2009.pdf

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: https://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
https://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17″ MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX – Cinema Displays I have a 22″ that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.

[Gary Adcock]

[Eugene Lehnert] “Did anyone ever write an article discussing how ProRes 4444 works”

I have not finished it yet- I plan on having an update done in time for next NAB.

one issues is I have to let the usage agreement run out on the website that currently stored on, as my online commentary and assistance is only available here on the Cow.

In the mean time, what are some of your questions?

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

https://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

[Eugene Lehnert]

Thanks for the posts.

I am looking to understand ProRes 4444 better. I see a lot of talk about the codec supporting YCbCr and RGB. I was interested to get a solid understanding of when and how to use it. When does the codec store information in YCbCr? When does it store it as RGB? That sort of thing. I can capture RGB Dual Link material from an HDCAMSR using the ProRes 4444 easy setup but the timeline is set to YUV 10-bit rendering? When does SMPTE range and Full Range come into play etc?

Thanks.

Eugene

[Rafael Amador]

[Eugene Lehnert] “I am looking to understand ProRes 4444 better. I see a lot of talk about the codec supporting YCbCr and RGB. I was interested to get a solid understanding of when and how to use it. When does the codec store information in YCbCr? When does it store it as RGB? That sort of thing. I can capture RGB Dual Link material from an HDCAMSR using the ProRes 4444 easy setup but the timeline is set to YUV 10-bit rendering? When does SMPTE range and Full Range come into play etc?
“
Hi Eugene,
Your very questions, shows that Prores 444 is not, at the moment, a very valid solution (hope in the future).
How can you relay on a codec that you doesn’t show the Color Space, doesn’t shows the bit depth and being 10b RGB it has no Full Range/Video range option?
What I found is that when you create your Prores 444 in an RGB application (Color, AE), the resulting file will be RGB. No way to get Prores 444 YUV from there.
When exporting from FC (YUV rendering) what you get is YUV.
If in a future FC is able of 10b RGB rendering, I guess it will be possible Prores 444 RGB output.

I don’t know how Prores 444 behaves when created on capturing (KONA or so).
I guess that if your are capturing HDCam RGB 444, the resulting file will be RGB and when capturing 10b YUV, you will get Prores 444. When capturing Analog, I have to think that we will get YUV too.
I guess things are like that because a (quality) Color Space conversion in RT on capture, would complicate the things.
But I think the big problem of this codec (RGB flavor) is, as you pointed, that have no Full/Video range options.
Prores 444 RGB simply do not support Superwhites. Try to export from Color some over 100% highlights and WILL BE CLIPPED.
This doesn’t happens with AJA 10b RGB. Superwhites are there.
So when and how to use Prores 444?
Before I thought that was a great solution, no I see very little applications.

The only advantage when bringing Prores 444 from AE or so, to FC, may be the 10b Alpha. The 10b RGB colors are crunched by FC to 8b. Hopefully FC doesn’t crunch the 10b Alpha channel too (have anybody tested this?)
If AE would be able to export Prores 444 YUV, things would be different. FC would be very much benefited. But the only way we have to get such Prores 444 YUV, is the very FC.
So the only real application that I find for Prores 444 is when you go from any RGB application to another one. This as long as the Superwhites clipping is not an issue.

Just to add that the information that Apple provides about this codec (White Papers) is simply shameful.
All my observations, as I stated, are based in simple testes made with files generated on software.
I have not a card to try any kind of test on capture, so my guesses at this respect are mainly based on related posts.
Cheers,
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com

[Gary Adcock]

Eugene,

contrary to the poster who signed is post with “I have not a card to try any kind of test on capture, so my guesses at this respect are mainly based on related posts. “

Since I have actually worked with Apple, ARRI, AJA and others to hammer out a wide variety of ProRes issues try to explain some of these issues.

Arri, the oldest name in Film and a name synonymous with quality has chosen to use ProRes 4444 as their capture codec in their new Alexa camera, they could have created their own codec or used anyone of the dozens of other codecs available for this state of the art tool, but after testing ARRI chose ProRes to be THE native codec for Alexa .

The codec can only respond to what it is given. If you are shooting with a camera that generates RGB ( few do) or working in an app that defaults to RGB (AE, Color and Motion) you are going to get RGB, mainly because YUV does not support Alpha channels and people working with RGB masters often are being used as part of the graphics pipeline require them for graphics compositing.

[Eugene Lehnert] “I can capture RGB Dual Link material from an HDCAMSR using the ProRes 4444 easy setup but the timeline is set to YUV 10-bit rendering?”

Yes- its only a change in the capture settings on your capture card, contrary to another post it is easy to identify what type of signal is being delivered to your system- for me the Frame Buffer on the Kona Control panel shows the type of signal that I am working with, while my FCP or VTRX capture settings tell me what format I will be editing with. Its not guess work, its paying attention to what and how you are working.

“When does SMPTE range and Full Range come into play etc?”

If you don’t know which to use then allow stick with is given (usually SMPTE) as that is more reliable for the YUV workflow you want to use.

I hope real information rather than a rant was helpful.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

https://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

[Rafael Amador]

Dear Gary,
Thanks for confirming that I’m right, even in my guesses. As you see, although I’m not a “Dual Link Boy” I’m not too lost about.
Normally, a professional only needs a manual to understand how a system works.

[gary adcock] “Since I have actually worked with Apple, ARRI, AJA and others to hammer out a wide variety of ProRes issues try to explain some of these issues. “
I can’t understand that working so close to those brains, you are unable to learn nothing and keep saying no senses like those:

[gary adcock] “mainly because YUV does not support Alpha channels”
What means that?????????
WHO DOESN”T SUPPORT ALPHA?
I can export Prores 444 YUV WITH A BEAUTIFUL ALPHA CHANNEL.
Can’t you?
Have you ever tried?

[gary adcock] “”When does SMPTE range and Full Range come into play etc?”
If you don’t know which to use then allow stick with is given (usually SMPTE) as that is more reliable for the YUV workflow you want to use.”
What a heck you say?
Do you find any option in Prores 444?
AJA 10b RGB have it.
Sheer 10b RGB have it.
Perhaps do you have a “Private Version” of Prores 444, because mine shows no options.

Gary, “On the job training” is very good, but without a proper understanding of the underlaying theory, all that knowledge is a “bubble”.
I wish I could have the opportunity to work with those people that (you say) you work with.
I would learn a lot, and, instead of disdain and confusion, I would try to bring some light to this forum.

Cheers,
rafael
(The poster without Dual Link)

PS: I’m in fire to see the results of your next comprehensive Prores 444 tests.
Hope they are a bit more scientific than the last bunch.

http://www.nagavideo.com

[Gary Adcock]

“mainly because YUV does not support Alpha channels”

Eugene,

as noted, I misspoke here.
What I was intending to say was that “YUV codecs rarely support alpha channels and since people with RGB masters are being used as part of the graphics pipeline that require them for compositing.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

https://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

[Gary Adcock]

[Rafael Amador] “[gary adcock] “”When does SMPTE range and Full Range come into play etc?”
If you don’t know which to use then allow stick with is given (usually SMPTE) as that is more reliable for the YUV workflow you want to use.”
What a heck you say?
Do you find any option in Prores 444? “

Most hardware configuration capable of capturing a dual link signal allow for a varied type of capture capabilities, but since you have, of your own admission, never worked at this level, that there are tools that can define these parameters during capture.

“Gary, “On the job training” is very good, but without a proper understanding of the underlaying theory, all that knowledge is a “bubble”.”

You should heed your own advice.

“I wish I could have the opportunity to work with those people that (you say) you work with.”

I am sure you would.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

https://blogs.creativecow.net/24640