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Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
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Finally, some descent. I knew it wouldn’t be long. This is just Mac hardware, windows OS. If this was running on an Acer laptop, would it not be pro enough for you?
The only thing missing form that demo in your requests is a computer monitor.
Apple makes a thunderbolt display, and thunderbolt by its very nature is display port, which means any displayport monitor should work.
Thunderbolt is made for loop through.
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[Shane Ross] “Yeah, you can get an iMac and do the same thing, but have the external monitoring because they have two TB ports.”
Two ports but nevertheless only 1 controller so no difference to the Air.
I’d be interested in seeing some reports on how chaining devices impacts bandwith. It’s only PCIe 4x – Red-Rocket, Raid and IO, something has to choke at a certain point.
Said it before – great additional IO option, no replacement for PCIe, no replacement for a tower. -
[Frank Gothmann] “Said it before – great additional IO option, no replacement for PCIe, no replacement for a tower.”
You’re right.
Might as well drag out the MacPro on set to review/transcode Red footage as a laptop based system surely can’t handle capture, playback, broadcast out, editing and storage.
Why bother with a 3lb laptop when a 40lb MacPro will suffice?
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[Jeremy Garchow] “You’re right.
Might as well drag out the MacPro on set to review/transcode Red footage as a laptop based system surely can’t handle capture, playback, broadcast out, editing and storage.
Why bother with a 3lb laptop when a 40lb MacPro will suffice?”
Why is it that people here tend to take a very specific example and try to generalise it.
If a TB equiped Air, running Windows, using a not-yet-released hw box can handle a very specific task it instantly and automatically means all currently established means of doing all sorts of things have become obsolete. Without any data or real-world reports to substantiate that. Not quite so.
I don’t want to take your TB goodness away, why of why are you so hot about killing of what others may need to get their work done?
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[Jeremy Garchow] “Finally, some descent. I knew it wouldn’t be long.”
I live to argue with you! 🙂
[Jeremy Garchow] “The only thing missing form that demo in your requests is a computer monitor.”
Well…that’s a BIG thing. I mean, the Air is either 13″, or 11″. Are you really going to edit with that small of a screen?
[Jeremy Garchow] “If this was running on an Acer laptop, would it not be pro enough for you?”
Of course not. What makes you think I do? I don’t recall saying anything of the sort.
“Thunderbolt is made for loop through.”
OK, but not when the device only has one TB port…like the Apple TB monitor. Like the BMD IO devices. Those only have one TB port. The ONLY devices that have loop-through are the hard drives (thus far). So you can go TB out of the computer to the drive then to the IO device…OR the Apple display. Can’t do both. If it was designed for loop-through, why do so few devices offer it?
[Jeremy Garchow] “Might as well drag out the MacPro on set to review/transcode Red footage as a laptop based system surely can’t handle capture, playback, broadcast out, editing and storage.
Why bother with a 3lb laptop when a 40lb MacPro will suffice?”
OK…this is a good solution for on the set. Not arguing there. The MacPro was never a great solution for the set…but it was what was needed for the longest time. But to say that TB makes it so we no longer need the MacPros AT ALL? That’s pretty short sighted. Why not make a MacPro with TB? Multiple TB connections? Wait, what about graphics cards? They are pretty important to the performance of many apps, like Adobe Premiere Pro, and Motion, Resolve…dunno about FCX, does that rely on GPU? When you are limited to the puny graphics cards that are in the Apple laptops, you are hamstrung.
Can’t use RESOLVE on an iMac…or laptop. The IO card required for it doesn’t connect via TB. So for Resolve on a Mac, you need a Mac Pro. And one of a handful of graphics cards. Even if BMD then makes a TB IO card for Resolve, you still can’t use it with a MacBook Air, MacMini, iMac…graphics cards are now the issue.
If Apple discontinues the MacPro…Resolve on the Mac is dead. And would be further proof that Apple gives a rats arse about the high end pros they used to RELY ON to survive.
I’m not saying that it isn’t REALLY NICE to be able to do this on a laptop…a MacBook Air. I LOVE that this is a possibility. Means that we can have these really nice, light computers on set, on location to do what we need. But for you to say “So uhh, about those MacPros….” as if to say “so, do we really need MacPros now?”
Yes we do.
Again, you surprise me with your attitudes about this. You are a high end professional and not only embrace an app that doesn’t do a lot of stuff high end pros need, but now you seem to think that we no longer need MacPros.
Unless I am COMPLETELY MISREADING your statement, and you only meant it as “who needs a MacPro on set now?” instead of “who needs MacPros anymore?” Which I know is entirely possible on a forum post…misreading a statement is an all-to-common occurrence. So, do you mean “who needs the MacPro anymore?” or “Who needs a MacPro on the set?”
Are you ready to be a high end Pro using an iMac (that does have two TB ports)?
Shane
Little Frog Post
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[Shane Ross] “Well…that’s a BIG thing. I mean, the Air is either 13″, or 11”. Are you really going to edit with that small of a screen? “
Everyday? No. But look at this demo. It could be done with a 17″ MacBook pro. I have and do edit on a 17″ MacBook pro when on the road.
[Shane Ross] “Of course not. What makes you think I do? I don’t recall saying anything of the sort.”
I think it as something like, “what does apple care about pros”?
[Shane Ross] “OK, but not when the device only has one TB port…like the Apple TB monitor. Like the BMD IO devices. Those only have one TB port. The ONLY devices that have loop-through are the hard drives (thus far). So you can go TB out of the computer to the drive then to the IO device…OR the Apple display. Can’t do both. If it was designed for loop-through, why do so few devices offer it?”
Cost, I imagine. The AJA ioXT has loop through, the Sonnet box in that demo has loop through, as does storage. Displays are “end of chain” devices so far. Everything in that demo has loop through, save the Blackmagic box. If the ioXT was shipping, it certainly could have been there with loop through, and then you’d have a display.
[Shane Ross] “OK…this is a good solution for on the set. Not arguing there. The MacPro was never a great solution for the set…but it was what was needed for the longest time. But to say that TB makes it so we no longer need the MacPros AT ALL?”
*shrug*. Do we? I mean, I still need a MacPro at the office for San connections, but will I in two years? A year? I don’t know. When I look at this technology demo (and that’s all it is guys, a demo or proof of concept) I start to wonder. Is that short sighted? I work mobile occasionally, and I can comfortably edit red raw on a laptop with some other gear and have it all fit in a carry on? Yeah, I’m down and I’m not afraid.
[Shane Ross] “Why not make a MacPro with TB? Multiple TB connections?”
Desktop processors aren’t ready. I’m sure we will see one when they are. Then, I can edit in the field, come back and plug all that same gear right in to a desktop. So do I need a MacPro? Or do I just need a box with higher power CPUs and RAM?
[Shane Ross] “Wait, what about graphics cards? They are pretty important to the performance of many apps, like Adobe Premiere Pro, and Motion, Resolve…dunno about FCX, does that rely on GPU? When you are limited to the puny graphics cards that are in the Apple laptops, you are hamstrung. “
Yes, they are. And since this demo was running Windows, you can have external GPUs as well. Look, I know this is all new, and it’s still one huge test, but I think it’s short sighted to deny what is going on here.
FCPX uses openCL, so yes it relies on GPU, just not quite like other applications.
[Shane Ross] “Can’t use RESOLVE on an iMac…or laptop. The IO card required for it doesn’t connect via TB. So for Resolve on a Mac, you need a Mac Pro. And one of a handful of graphics cards. Even if BMD then makes a TB IO card for Resolve, you still can’t use it with a MacBook Air, MacMini, iMac…graphics cards are now the issue. “
Certainly. Today, you are absolutely right. Tomorrow? Remember, thunderbolt is not Apple technology, it’s intel with Apple’s help to push it out of the door.
[Shane Ross] “If Apple discontinues the MacPro…Resolve on the Mac is dead. And would be further proof that Apple gives a rats arse about the high end pros they used to RELY ON to survive.”
Again, this was Mac hardware running windows. With windows, you can have external GPUs (as evidenced by the demo, as a rocket card seems to be a custom GPU). Resolve is being ported to windows.
[Shane Ross] “I’m not saying that it isn’t REALLY NICE to be able to do this on a laptop…a MacBook Air. I LOVE that this is a possibility. Means that we can have these really nice, light computers on set, on location to do what we need. But for you to say “So uhh, about those MacPros….” as if to say “so, do we really need MacPros now?” “
Today, we do. It was a rhetorical question, not a statement or mandate. If you need a 24 sizzle core beast for your VFX work, have at it. Plenty of manufacturers make them, but for editorial and color? Maybe not.
[Shane Ross] “Again, you surprise me with your attitudes about this. You are a high end professional and not only embrace an app that doesn’t do a lot of stuff high end pros need, but now you seem to think that we no longer need MacPros. “
The proof is in the pudding. Before this tech demo, I would have said, desktop or die. After the demo, I say the desktop may be dying? (for me and my little editorial needs. Skywalker Ranch, we are not). It’s just a question and it won’t happen overnight and this demo is some serious proof. And really, this demo has nothing to do with Apple. If there was a windows laptop that had Thunderbolt, there would be no Apple products in it at all. OSX is not in this demo.
As far as me “embracing” FCPX, I like to think I am remaining rather balanced. I will tell you exactly where it falls short. It doesn’t do all that I need, that’s why I constantly say I can’t use it everyday, but there is some kickass concepts in there that I am rather excited about. Am I wrong in thinking that way? Can’t I learn from good ideas, no matter if they aren’t perfect for me or my situation, or the greater good? aren’t I allowed to give it a shot and give it half a second to mature, or give Apple a chance to deliver what they have said they are going to deliver? Or am I being short sighted again?
[Shane Ross] “Unless I am COMPLETELY MISREADING your statement, and you only meant it as “who needs a MacPro on set now?” instead of “who needs MacPros anymore?” Which I know is entirely possible on a forum post…misreading a statement is an all-to-common occurrence. So, do you mean “who needs the MacPro anymore?” or “Who needs a MacPro on the set?” “
I can’t get rid of my MacPro quite yet, but I’d be a fool to say that I might not need one in a few years for editorial.
[Shane Ross] “Are you ready to be a high end Pro using an iMac (that does have two TB ports)?”
Using an iMac does not mean a non-pro to me. I don’t give a rats ass what it is as long as I can connect to the current infrastructure and have enough power to get the job done. What do I care if it’s an iMac, an Air, or a desktop? My clients don’t call and say, was this edited on a desktop?
Jeremy
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[Frank Gothmann] “If a TB equiped Air, running Windows, using a not-yet-released hw box can handle a very specific task it instantly and automatically means all currently established means of doing all sorts of things have become obsolete. Without any data or real-world reports to substantiate that. Not quite so.”
In all fairness, Frank, I was not generalizing. I was sticking to what the demo showed.
Red raw editorial playback, simultaneous SDI capture, fast storage, a screen capture. Unless this video is a fake, this is happening.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “[Shane Ross] “Of course not. What makes you think I do? I don’t recall saying anything of the sort.”
I think it as something like, “what does apple care about pros”?”
Other computer makers make towers. HP Z800 for example. PC towers aren’t going away.
[Jeremy Garchow] “The AJA ioXT has loop through”
Ahh….missed that. Good device!
[Jeremy Garchow] “I have and do edit on a 17″ MacBook pro when on the road.”
So have I. 17″ is a lot more than 13″. And I have edited on a 13″ machine too. Not fun.
[Jeremy Garchow] “Desktop processors aren’t ready. I’m sure we will see one when they are.”
They aren’t? Then what are all the HPs and Dells and other Windows Desktops running?
[Jeremy Garchow] “If you need a 24 sizzle core beast for your VFX work, have at it. Plenty of manufacturers make them, but for editorial and color? Maybe not.”
WE all need to render at some point. Not every effect is full quality/real time. And shortened render times are good things. Export times too…encoding to H.264, Broadcast MPEG-2, WMV. Processor power is a GOOD thing for the many tasks we in basic editorial still need to do.
[Jeremy Garchow] “What do I care if it’s an iMac, an Air, or a desktop? My clients don’t call and say, was this edited on a desktop?”
Client perception is huge. And you aren’t always alone with your own devices. Many times you have clients in the room, and if they see a small laptop, or iMac, they will wonder, “is this guy really a professional?” I hate that perception…but many clients, AGENCIES mainly, have that perception.
Anyways…I’d love a kick ass laptop, but I need big dual screens for my work. I have a LOT of footage to sort through and need the screen space.
Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def -
You original post said “Yowza. So uhh, about those MacPros….”.
Somebody else replied:
A lot of people are predicting the death of MacPros but with new technology like this, will it matter?”So unless I am misreading, the implication is that a tower isn’t really required anymore, a refresh is less likely because of what the demo shows and its demise won’t matter.
Which is generalising, because is IS required for tons of other stuff, just not that one specific example (unless you need to render of course). -
[Shane Ross] “Other computer makers make towers. HP Z800 for example. PC towers aren’t going away.”
Is was a bit premature, but HP was thinking about spinning off their desktop line last year.
[Shane Ross] “They aren’t? Then what are all the HPs and Dells and other Windows Desktops running? “
As far as I know, there are no desktop processors that are thunderbolt capable. No windows machines have thunderbolt let alone desktops. This is true now, but will change as soon as the processors are ready, like I mentioned.
[Shane Ross] “WE all need to render at some point. Not every effect is full quality/real time. And shortened render times are good things. Export times too…encoding to H.264, Broadcast MPEG-2, WMV. Processor power is a GOOD thing for the many tasks we in basic editorial still need to do.”
I now you haven’t played with fcpx, but certain exports are GPU accelerated, and you don’t have to render your timeline at all and effects still play. I turn rendering off. I’m not crazy, there’s some cool shit in fcpx. Premiere has a similar setup, only render when you need with some Cuda accelerated effects, with media encoder getting a bit of GPU acceleration for encodes.
[Shane Ross] “Client perception is huge. And you aren’t always alone with your own devices. Many times you have clients in the room, and if they see a small laptop, or iMac, they will wonder, “is this guy really a professional?” I hate that perception…but many clients, AGENCIES mainly, have that perception. “
Ok. Then buy a desktop if you need the image.
Our desktops are hidden in a closet along with our noisy SAN. They come in and see no computers. They don’t seem to mind, but hey, if you need to strut your stuff, then you need to strut your stuff.
[Shane Ross] “Anyways…I’d love a kick ass laptop, but I need big dual screens for my work. I have a LOT of footage to sort through and need the screen space.”
I don’t know what to say. Laptops have supported two monitors since time immemorial, or whatever.
Also, I was wrong, apple thunderbolt displays do support daisy chaining. It’s displayport displays that are end of chain.
Jeremy
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