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Premiere wish list
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Dave and David,
Could you be more specific? I’m not following what exactly you’re talking about…continuous timecode…rolling edit tool leaves a frame, etc…
Thanks
TimK,
Kolb Syverson Communications,
Creative Cow Host,
2004-2005 NAB Post Production Conference
Premiere Pro Technical Chair,
Author, “The Easy Guide to Premiere Pro” http://www.focalpress.com
“Premiere Pro Fast Track DVD Series” http://www.classondemand.net -
[Tim Kolb] “Could you be more specific? I’m not following what exactly you’re talking about…continuous timecode…rolling edit tool leaves a frame, etc…”
Tim,
Say you razor a region in a shot in order to copy a part of it to paste somewhere else (often done for audio reasons). You’re left with two cuts in the original event that don’t do anything. They’re now irrelevant, just messing up your timeline. You can’t undo them because then you’ll lose the paste. In edit* there was a function to delete these ‘irrelevant’ cuts – within any marked range or the entire timeline – cuts where the source code is continuous across them.
In PPro if you use the rolling edit tool to drag one cut across the other you’re stopped at the second cut. For some inexplicable reason PPro always wants to leave 1 frame of the shot you’re dragging across. To continue you have to delete the frame, close the gap, and then continue. If you want to drag accoss a number of clips it quickly becomes extremely annoying. You’re forced to use the lift function and then extend the clip – mark a range, lift, drag instead of one simple drag.
It’s just one of the many inefficient work flows that are frustrating users who are accustomed to more mature NLE’s. Not difficult to fix – but a result of a poorly thought out consultation phase in the original design process.
And Tim, you’re always mentioning the lack of resources for the programming team to fix/implement these things. Intrigued, I looked at the credits. I stopped counting the progammers after the first three dozen. Edit* was completely coded by 8 guys and in the time they worked on it were able to accomplish a ton more functionality and integration with Combustion than these guys have managed.
There are harshly disparaging words, it’s true, but they do reflect the views of numerous seasoned users with experience on other apps. Friendly has edited programs on more NLE’s than I care to count. The NLE universe is rapidly contracting into the three A’s but if 2.0 doesn’t fix the many dumb things designed into PPro, I’m afraid the A’s will number 2.5.
David
AllinOneFilms.com -
[david cherniack] ”
And Tim, you’re always mentioning the lack of resources for the programming team to fix/implement these things. Intrigued, I looked at the credits. I stopped counting the progammers after the first three dozen. Edit* was completely coded by 8 guys and in the time they worked on it were able to accomplish a ton more functionality and integration with Combustion than these guys have managed.There are harshly disparaging words, it’s true, but they do reflect the views of numerous seasoned users with experience on other apps. Friendly has edited programs on more NLE’s than I care to count. The NLE universe is rapidly contracting into the three A’s but if 2.0 doesn’t fix the many dumb things designed into PPro, I’m afraid the A’s will number 2.5.”
Well, my intention was to indicate that resources are finite and the feature requests are infinite, not to say they have three guys working on it in a basement.
The list all the programmers who ever worked on any version of the software in the credits. Many have moved to different departments, different companies, or in the case of a few deceased team members, different “astral planes”. As long as there is a piece of code that that person wrote in there, they list that person. Also, they credit people like beta program administrators, managers and other folks who work with development, but don’t program.
I suspect 8 guys with a mission and without 18 layers of corporate “leadership” might be able to accomplish more just from a working without distraction POV.
I understand that PPro isn’t Edit* or Avid, but I doubt Adobe will lose a lot of sales ground anytime soon, however they may fail to expand into the “upper-level” professional as they’ve been aiming for… The basic dissatisfaction seems to be coming from the editors who #1 need Avid-like asset-centric features, or #2 need Edit*-like flexibility and speed.
PPro continues to move forward in these areas, but they have been sluggish with bringing asset management features to fruition in particular.
Edit* was an amazing program from what I hear, I’ve never used it. The eight guys may have integrated it with Combustion intensely, but of course Adobe is integrating with Photoshop/Illustrator/Audition/Encore and AE…complete with creating new hooks between all those applications…without breaking hooks and functions in the other applications.
Avid is still the king of asset management but workflow flexibility, while improving, is still a bit behind the curve, though for those who need the asset management features (television serial workflow, etc.), they are critical.
Look…I’ll make no apologies for Adobe. They’re a big company and sometimes agility isn’t a big company’s strong suit. The bottom line is that app works for you or it doesn’t. Either the missing features are annoyances that you can work around, or you can’t.
-I personally hate the idea that the Multiply and Screen keys have never worked under PPro…but they’re in there.
-I want a button on the monitor window that gets me to a scope, I hate having to use the menu for that…
-PPro’s track matte workflow is goofy…
-I can’t stand the fact that I can’t open multiple bins…
-I don’t like the fact that there aren’t integrated master audio level meters somewhere on the interface…
-Re-rendering rendered nested sequences is just absurd…
-The fact that PPro can’t simply “find” it’s media assets with no assistance after moving the project like my Media 100 did in 1995 is a head-scratcher…
-Conforming audio without the option to turn it off and have the choice of slower audio processing, or the slow conforming step is tedious…I can go on and on and on and on…and I do with the Adobe guys as do many others and steps forward keep getting made, but it’s never enough for everyone. I applaud those who keep offering feature suggestions, but of course some of the feature suggestions conflict so they all couldn’t be implemented even if all the time and resources in the world existed.
PPro works best for me…and I have tried a lot of other apps (if I was forced to change over today, I think I might lean toward Velocity)…I haven’t used Edit*, but I’ve never been one that maximizes the benefits of keyboard shortcuts so perhaps I would not have realized all its potential benefits.
I adapt to PPro’s shortcomings and turn out my projects and submit my requests for the next time around… If there was an app that made more sense with my personal workflow right now, I’d switch. I realize that others have different ways they enjoy working and therefore other software is better. I feel for Edit* users as they had made their choice and got it taken away from them. I switched over from Media 100 in about 2000 because the $1500-2500 USD upgrades were increasingly just bug fixes and the feature set was left go dormant while they started developing the 844x… I may switch again someday. I’ve never made a claim that PPro is best for everyone. I keep trying to help users make it the most useful it can be for their workflow, but I do understand the strong points of many of the alternatives out there as well.
Bottom line…I’m not worried about Adobe financially, they’ll be fine. PPro will eventually get there, but as you suggest, marketshare in the short term will depend on getting “there” sooner rather than later. In the meantime, I’ll just keep copy/pasting feature suggestions from this forum and keeping them for the next time around when different users come forward and say “if THIS problem isn’t solved in PPro 2.5 (or 3.0, or 3.5, or 4.0…), it could be down to just Apple, Avid and (insert your favorite here)for real pros…”
TimK,
Kolb Syverson Communications,
Creative Cow Host,
2004-2005 NAB Post Production Conference
Premiere Pro Technical Chair,
Author, “The Easy Guide to Premiere Pro” http://www.focalpress.com
“Premiere Pro Fast Track DVD Series” http://www.classondemand.net -
[Dave Friend] ”
11. Preference for setting the default alignment of transitions. For an old fart like myself several decades of tape editing means transitions always Start at Cut. Why are you making me adjust this every time I add transitions?”Hmmm…I’m not exactly a “young fart” myself and I guess I don’t have this feeling. I think it’s just a changeover from a tape based, or an NLE imitating a tape based workflow.
I suppose it could be switchable in the preferences…
TimK,
Kolb Syverson Communications,
Creative Cow Host,
2004-2005 NAB Post Production Conference
Premiere Pro Technical Chair,
Author, “The Easy Guide to Premiere Pro” http://www.focalpress.com
“Premiere Pro Fast Track DVD Series” http://www.classondemand.net -
Thanks for the crie de coeur. I do appreciate your sentiments. We are in the same boat.
My feeling is that a lot of things went wrong in the early design stages of PPro and we’ll be continuing to pay the price, probably through version 3.0. For many of us there is no real alternative. The other two A’s are objectionable in their own right. Velocity may not survive the Harris aquisition. It also doesn’t have nested timelines. The unspoken word osmosing from the 2.0 beta program is “Expect integration, expect asset management, expect some fixes of the major workflow issues. Don’t expect miracles.” Well the problem is that the workflow issues are the most frustrating thing about the app. Integration and asset management are not gong to speed up most editing. I’m beginning to think that the more seasoned users of PPro have to band together put pressure on Adobe as a group to address these things in a point release. 18 more months of having the rolling edit tool balk at cuts is just not acceptable ( I use this only as an example. In fact I have no idea if it’s addressed in 2.0) But it may be premature to mention this now. I’m willing to wait to 2.0 and evaluate the situation then. Part of the frustration is the time it’s taking to get 2.0 out the door.
David
AllinOneFilms.com -
[david cherniack] “The unspoken word osmosing from the 2.0 beta program is “Expect integration, expect asset management, expect some fixes of the major workflow issues. Don’t expect miracles.” Well the problem is that the workflow issues are the most frustrating thing about the app. Integration and asset management are not gong to speed up most editing.”
Well, here is a case in point where everyone’s assessment of what is a “deal breaker” is different.
Nobody editing episodic television can even consider PPro before it can be used over a network with various stations all accessing common assets.
Most large post houses think PPro is a pretender until it has better import/export of EDL and project information to/from other systems.
Documentary producers wonder how anyone can possibly function with the bin system because they feel the most pain there because of the sheer amount of media they use.
People who use a lot of media in general don’t understand why PPro doesn’t have more “offline” modes.
Users who work on local TV spots all day want the Titler to do everything that Inscriber and AE does so they can steamline their workflow where the use of text is constant.
AE users who are coming over from another editing app, want it to work more like AE with “pre-comp” and keyframes on the timeline and graphing because that is what they’re used to and it will help their productivity.
Users coming from Edit* want a hot key combo for everything because that’s what they’re used to, as well as wide open media compatibility like Edit* used to have where you simply dump everything on the timeline…I’m willing to bet that there needs to be some sort of “conformed video” function to make this work in RT…
The list just goes on… Three years ago it was nested timelines that were the “Holy Grail”…then it was the audio handling being undependable…now the audio handling is damn near best in class for NLEs (with the exception of Vegas I suppose), but everyone hates conforming…we have multiple sequences, but now we want a separate undo cache for each sequence…
I’m not saying we should stop making suggestions, I’m just saying that I think more of them are being implemented than this thread is implying.
As someone who was involved in PPro’s beginnings, I can tell you that these guys are listening…it’s just that every user’s idea of what is the one or two absolutely critical features is different…and for every user that get’s his/her wish…another 150 don’t. You can keep working on software forever, but eventually you have to release something to pay the bills.
Good stuff will be coming and more good stuff will come after that…but every users’ desires being implemented just isn’t practical.
Was it Frank Zappa who said “You never finish an album, you abandon it.” ?
TimK,
Kolb Syverson Communications,
Creative Cow Host,
2004-2005 NAB Post Production Conference
Premiere Pro Technical Chair,
Author, “The Easy Guide to Premiere Pro” http://www.focalpress.com
“Premiere Pro Fast Track DVD Series” http://www.classondemand.net -
All these different uses have tehir own individual requirements, it’s true. Nevertheless I would argue that the timeline workflow stupidities effect everyone pretty well equally. If it takes three processes to do something that could be done in one ( like the aforementioned rolling edit inanity) it doesn’t matter whether you’re cutting a 3 hour documentary or a 10 second spot, whether you’re in a group SAN or by yourself. It just slows you down.
Being the lazy sod that I am I hate anything that forces me into extra effort. Therefore I wish to change it.
David
AllinOneFilms.com -
[david cherniack] “All these different uses have tehir own individual requirements, it’s true. Nevertheless I would argue that the timeline workflow stupidities effect everyone pretty well equally.”
I understand completely…but another editor that is employed in television would counter “…if I can’t get to my assets, the workflow is irrelevant.”
Who’s right? You both are as it applies to your circumstances. This process repeats itself over about a thousand times and you can start to see where somebody somewhere needs to set some priorities and some focus…and it isn’t always on the features I want either.
🙂
I’m really not trying to argue with you specifically…but we’ve been through a lot of versions of Premiere since I’ve picked it up and I’ve heard so many different features with the same top priority and urgency from so many different users (many of which were delivered…and met with more complaints than the lack of the feature garnered) that I’ve learned myself that my workflow and my biggest headaches aren’t everyone’s workflow and headaches…and while I don’t always get what I wanted, I can see where my priorities aren’t the only ones.
Again, keep the suggestions coming, I don’t have an issue with any feature requests made in this entire thread…but don’t get into the mindset that if the feature you requested isn’t in there that somehow someone wasn’t listening…that’s all I’m saying.
TimK,
Kolb Syverson Communications,
Creative Cow Host,
2004-2005 NAB Post Production Conference
Premiere Pro Technical Chair,
Author, “The Easy Guide to Premiere Pro” http://www.focalpress.com
“Premiere Pro Fast Track DVD Series” http://www.classondemand.net -
I think part of the problem is that Adobe doesn’t want to alienate their prosumer user base. They figure (rightly) that for every pro editor there are fifty consumer types throwing together 3 minute home movies, and they don’t want to lose that market. So they are reluctant to load the application with too many advanced features.
But FCP has shown that pretending to be a pro application sells (even though it can lead to feature bloat).
I’d like to see Adobe pick up the pace of development, with the ultimate goal of becoming the best editing software available. To do this they are going to have to make major improvements in media management and integration. That’s the hard stuff, but who is in a better position to do this than Adobe? With what’s going on in Photoshop (Version Cue, Bridge)
it’s clear that Adobe WANTS to address advanced search and collaborative workflow across all their applications.Coming up with a more advanced edit toolset is relatively simple. If the folks at Adobe are clever, and take suggestions from professional editors (like us) to heart, they can make great improvements without sacrificing the simplicity that remains one of Premiere’s strong points. And if they can sell us, the wannabees will fall right in line with wallets open. Hell, it might even send their stock up.
Bottom line: it’s time for Adobe to get off the pot and dedicate some major resources to speed Premiere’s development. And we can help. After all, our suggestions are FREE. All we want is to make Premiere a better product… no, the BEST product, because that’s what we prefer to spend our money on.
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[Eric Jurgenson] “Coming up with a more advanced edit toolset is relatively simple. If the folks at Adobe are clever, and take suggestions from professional editors (like us) to heart, they can make great improvements without sacrificing the simplicity that remains one of Premiere’s strong points. And if they can sell us, the wannabees will fall right in line with wallets open. Hell, it might even send their stock up.”
Boy, that’s quite a collection of assumptions…
There are users who already think the simplicity has been sacrificed to get the toolset to where it is… Maybe you’re a programmer and you can call up the folks at Adobe and explain how easy it is to come up “…with a more advanced toolset.” I’m not. I’ve seen features that seem like they’re very simple, but when you get into the “plumbing” you realize that there may be challenges we don’t know about.
You’re also assuming they don’t take suggestions from professional editors…you have no idea how complex the system is that is in place and staffed to do just that.
There are those who submit PPro is becoming too complicated for “wannabees”…Premiere Elements was developed to solve that problem.
🙂
TimK,
Kolb Syverson Communications,
Creative Cow Host,
2004-2005 NAB Post Production Conference
Premiere Pro Technical Chair,
Author, “The Easy Guide to Premiere Pro” http://www.focalpress.com
“Premiere Pro Fast Track DVD Series” http://www.classondemand.net
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