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Premiere VS Final Cut
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The best way to use this codec (if, when,..) could be to import a preedited version on the timeline in native format. Leave premiere to make a preview in this codec, then goon editing realtime and finally export in desired format. This would mean no re-compression in intermediate codec.. but just a one step export. Quality and workflow could improve incredibily
siRoma di Marcello Mazzilli
Corporate video productions in Italy
http://www.siroma.com -
Ummm…Marcello?
Have you ever edited ProRes on Premiere Pro on Windows?
I’ve got a video on Adobe TV on just such a thing… A 90 minute timeline of 720p60…in CS4…which I edited on a laptop (a big laptop granted, but certainly not a “special computer” with “special drives”)…it runs just fine.
Yes, you can’t encode to ProRes without FCP, but Adobe is really built to go direct out to whatever you want to distribute, and as the video I did shows…you dynamic link the timeline in Encore and author…done.
ProRes delivers what it’s called to, and in QuickTime, there just hasn’t been a huge history of general use 10 bit codecs on the Windows side, so any app that didn’t own some proprietary permutation under QuickTime such as AJA, or BlueFish wasn’t calling for 10 bit.
CS5 with the AJA software/hardware on Windows calls the 10 bit precision of ProRes and plays it. I suspect that PPro CS5 may have it without AJA augmentation during CS5’s cycle as they are very focused on 10 bit color precision implementation.
ProRes is a good codec. I suspect that CineForm is a touch better, as testing has it out performing HDcamSR for maintaining quality in RGB 4:4:4 (the closest version of CineForm’s codec to HDcamSR)…but ProRes is good too.
I’ve worked with lots of intermediate codecs over the years and I’d say that of the codecs in fairly common use, from a datarate-to-visual-quality standpoint, CineForm is probably the best, Canopus HQ (only available in Grass Valley Edius on Windows) is probably number 2, and ProRes is probably very close to Canopus HQ (the Canopus codec and ProRes are both DCT transforms which use the familiar ‘blocks’ that we’ve all noticed when they show up in aggressively or repeatedly compressed footage…CineForm is a wavelet transform…even when stressed, it can’t produce any blocking artifacts).
Let’s be careful that we aren’t condemning Premiere Pro because FCP has ProRes encoding and PPro doesn’t…there are lots of factors involved in any comparison you’d care to make. Final Cut is a solid application with a large installed base and lots of good functionality, but I think some FCP users are still picturing Premiere 4.0 circa 1996 in their mind when they advise people on their choices.
Even a very knowledgeable colleague of mine at NAB (2 months ago in 2010) who is an FCP user/instructor told me that his students just don’t “…get the A/B editing thing on the timeline…” Premiere 6.5 was the last version to have this feature…PPro v1 replaced it in 2003 with an edit timeline that functions in a completely visually familiar way for FCP and Avid editors.
It’s like criticizing Apple for the lousy performance and engineering quality of the G4s we bought back when Premiere 6.5 ran in OSX months before FCP did…that time is long past and those remarks are simply not an adequate description of the current Mac product line, which is fantastic.
It’s been -8 years- since I’ve seen a “NOT RENDERED” frame show up when I place a clip that isn’t native to the timeline in a sequence in Adobe Premiere Pro…EIGHT years…my colleagues with FCP need to rewrap or transcode or render…today.
Importing graphics into FCP is a process that would drive most PPro users insane… Not nearly as flexible and fast as PPro.
Audio capabilities inside PPro on the timeline are simply superior to FCP. I can switch my PPro timeline from the minimum increment being a video frame to the minimum increment in the audio tracks being one audio sample. I do this if I have a digital ‘pop’ artifact, it can even be in the middle of a spoken word. I go in and simply cut out the 3-5 samples of the artifact and I replace it with nothing as it’s so fast we can’t even detect a gap. Switch back to video incremented timeline…move on.
When I have to “customize” a music track and recut it to match my edited program length, I can drop into audio increments and beat-match music at any point I care to…on the timeline in PPro. The audio portion of the timeline in PPro was designed by a couple of smart guys who worked with DigiDesign on ProTools prior to Avid taking over. It’s implemented pretty well.
As far as your assertion of “no HD” codec option for PPro… Again, have you ever used PPro? How many HD codec options do you require?
I could edit XDcam EX, XDcamHD, and P2 DVCProHD without transcoding or rewrapping -IN PPro CS3- 2 versions back. No copied media, the stuff just got transferred to a local drive and away you go.
I could cut RED RAW in it’s native form, with access to it’s decode and debayer settings right in PPro CS4…again…no transcode, no rewrap…AND access to the very settings that would be the reason why you’d shoot motion RAW in the first place…during the edit process.
In CS5, you now have native settings for AVC-Intra (100 and 50 Mbit), AVCHD, Canon XF, Digital SLR (ever take footage from a Canon 5D MkII and slap it down on the timeline and just start cutting?), XDcamHD 422, and DVCPro50 (SD)…
I use CineForm for an intermediate codec, but I’ve cut in most of PPro’s native modes when it was appropriate. It works pretty well for me. CineForm also has what will likely become one of, if not -the- standard workflow for editing stereoscopic material…
Both eyes in one file with direct control of the two eyes and their spatial and framing relationship in real time in First Light. Not to mention that First Light does primary color correction on any CineForm material and stores the correction in metadata so the original file is unchanged, yet every app that touches it sees those changes.
Windows and Mac, metadata that stores color look up tables…can you see why ProRes may not be seen as the one true path to intermediate codec salvation by those of us who have used some other options and compared them?
The CineForm line of codecs is cross platform by the way…they’re also available as QT on FCP, and CineForm is the most elegant stereoscopy solution there too. Add a Kona card to either Windows or Mac and you have RT editing of stereoscopic (“3D”) material output to a stereoscopic display in RT on PPro…OR FCP…on Mac…or Windows…QT or AVI wrapper.
If Apple wanted to make ProRes a universal intermediate codec standard, I suspect they’d have had the marketing muscle to get that done some time ago, as it is a very solid, high quality video codec…I’m at a loss as to why they didn’t, frankly.
So…I guess, yes… PPro on Windows doesn’t encode out to ProRes.
While I would welcome that capability any time Apple was benevolent enough to bestow it upon us, I think Windows-based PPro users will probably be able to muddle through…
…somehow.
TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions, -
Sure.. All your considerations on Premiere are right.
But let’s explain better. I have Mac not Windows… first of all. ProRes is nearly a standard on Mac and Premiere should comply (Apple or not Apple).
I love Premiere’s interface, the ability to import any format etc… But I am missing real-realtime operations. That is the HD codec I want.. a realtime one…. Nice I have AVCHD, M2T MPEG 2 files, DVCPRO HD etc…. but none of these works realtime for me. I’ve seen people working on PCs that can almost get to it (I am still speaking of a normal non-special machine) but not on Mac.
Also.. and this is not quicktime, is Premiere… when I press PLAY I expect to start and when I press STOP I expect it to stop.. but sometimes it takes half a second that is an incredible long time for an editor.I don’t know… I started editing in HD on Premiere around 2004 as soon as I bought (was one of the first) my Sony Z1 that gave me an M2T stream. Now.. six years after.. I am still not able to have a realtime playback without buying dedicated hardware. Sure.. there’s Cineform.. But afetr buying Adobe Master Collection shouldn’t I deserve a realtime playback engine ?
siRoma di Marcello Mazzilli
Corporate video productions in Italy
http://www.siroma.com -
Tim shows his huge technical knowledge on this and I’m only adding what I know myself and experience week to week. I have my own Premiere Pro setup but also work frequently for clients who have FC Studio and Avids of various kinds. All NLE’s struggle a bit on HD without optimum hardware setup. Crikey! why shouldn’t they when you consider the demands asked of them. I’ve sat in many Avid suites where the edit has ground to a halt for a spot of rendering.
Premiere, in my view, is the most easy and intuitive editor on the market despite it not having much favour with “professionals”. (I have so say, with our combined years experience and portfolio of work and clients I’m not sure how much more professional Tim and I could be – along with many others who frequently post on this site)
Sure, it has ideosyncracies and bugs – show me software that doesn’t.
But for example Premiere’s ability to tightly control motion both temporally and geographically on the timeline is far superior to FCP. You could say that DL alone is worth the money and CS5’s MPE really is a completely different kettle of fish compared to the latest FCP capability.
As you might gather from some previous posts, I’m not adverse to having a pop at Adobe or any other software provider – perhaps sometimes a little harshly – but I’m prepared to admit that this new release is very sorted internally. That is a very important plus point. It just needs everyone else to catch up.
To adapt a well known phrase used in the movie industry: Q: What’s the best version of software you’ve ever worked on. A: The next one!
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The go/stop thing can be a pain and that’s on the Windows side too…
What kind of configuration are you running? Those formats you mention all run in realtime, even on a dual-dual-core AMD I have…
If I start adding effects, then of course you end up having to preview render at some point where you’ve reached the machine’s limits…but that’s only for getting frame rate on playback, you can still see the clip and manipulate it…
Hmmm… I know that indications have been that the Mac is behind the PCs in the Adobe performance dept as they took quite a break there… I didn’t think the performance gap was that wide though…
I do suspect that Adobe’s ability to encode ProRes is likely in Apple’s hands at least somewhat. ProRes, QT rewrapped tape-borne DVCProHD, and QT rewrapped HDV are all intentionaly left out of QT on Windows. You can’t encode ProRes without FCP installed (or a KiPro)
TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,
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