Premiere Used For Film Edit?

[Troy Murison]

We have done lots (and by lots, I mean LOTS) of projects where
the offline is done with 29.97 downconverts and edited in a 29.97
project. Then the resulting 29.97 EDL is converted to 23.98 before
final assembly from the original tapes. This works fine given you
have a utility to convert the list. What gets hard is checking
the resulting conform against the offline- two different frame rates
mean you can’t have them co-exist on the same timeline to overlay
or split screen them in most systems. These areas are where
Premiere falls down a bit. But the 29.97 edit, convert to 23.98 to
conform route might still work if your finishing folks are
comfortable with it.

As for capturing and editing at 24 from DVCAM, Premiere Pro
doesn’t have a utility or ability to remove 3:2 pulldown on capture
or afterwards. What would be ideal is for the pulldown to be
removed on capture resulting in true 24fps editing. This is what Avid
Film Composer does. It requires a constant 3:2 cadence (not usually
a issue for film dailies/transfers) to do this. FCP can do this
via Cinema tools as well, but it requires post-capture processing.

Long story short, consult with the folks who will do the final
conform. They will likely have dealt with these issues and have a
system in place to handle it and/or have a preference for how you
start to edit your project.

-Troy Murison
Seattle, WA

[Richard Boddington]

Thanks for the informative response.

I’ll check on the 29.97 list to 23.98 route. I can easily create a 29.97 EDL of course.

I’m looking at Cinema Tools, but now it’s packaged with a ton of stuff I don’t need to make a cuts only EDL.

I have a Mac version of Premiere that allows you to capture the time code from a time code window on the tape. It uses a contrast system to read the code.

If I have the post house make my DVCAM down converts using visual time code that has the “true” time code in the window, would that work better? Then also change the timebase to 24fps?

Just thinking outloud here.

Thanks
Richard

[Troy Murison]

So you must be using a older version of Premiere- what version is it? I know v2.0
had that feature (not Premiere Pro) but I can’t remember beyond that to v3, 4 or ?
as far as that feature…

As for that, I would be somewhat skeptical about it working well. Also, the
downconverts are going to have 29.97 TC on them anyway so it still won’t get you 24 fps
code. Having window dubs is a good idea anyway though, especially if your downconverts
are letterboxed- it’s a natural place to put the window and you can always crop it off
if you want to show the cut without the code. That could help in the conform process for
reference too if there are issues if you decide on the 29.97 to 23.98 process.

If you are on a Mac anyway, FCP with Cinema tools might be a way to go if you want to
maintain a true 23.98 editing setup though.

-Troy Murison
Seattle, WA

[Eric Addison]

“As for capturing and editing at 24 from DVCAM, Premiere Pro
doesn’t have a utility or ability to remove 3:2 pulldown on capture
or afterwards.”

Just curious, what is happening if you work on a project(shot 24P Advanced on a DVX100B) in a 24P time line in Premiere Pro 2 if this is the case? Is it not true 24 fps?

[Richard Boddington]

I’m kinda stuck between two worlds 🙂

Premiere 5.1 on my Mac G4. It does create a very useable 29.97 EDL, if I was auto assembling from say NTSC D-Beta I’d be home free.

To use Cinema Tools I’ll need a new Pro Mac plus the production bundle. In a different forum a guy described Cinema Tools as a “nightmare.” So that doesn’t build my confidence.

Sounds to me like you have done this and made it work, converting the 29.97 CMX EDL to 23.98. May I ask for more details on how exactly you made the 23.98 list? Info that would help the editor, did you use a separate stand alone software program?

I’m going to cut a short scene and run a test, before I committ to any method of course.

Failing this, I’ll rent time on an Avid that has been set up to make these lists. I just wanted to try the tools at hand options first.

Thanks for the info.
Richard

[Troy Murison]

In that case I think PPro has alternatives for working with the 24pA format.
I’ve never used it for 24pA though. The pulldown cadence is different and
incompatible between the Panasonic Advanced pulldown and ‘regular’ 3:2
pulldown used by the entire world for telecine and DVD and everything else
that’s converted from 24 to 30 fps. If you are using the 24pA camera and
capture using the 24pA settings, I assume that PPro handles the removal
of the pulldown and then is working in TRUE 24p. But, as I’ve said, I have
not used that feature of PPro. That feature works in FCP (there are
a few gotchas, but once you’re aware of them, it works well) and I have
used it successfully before.

-Troy Murison
Seattle, WA

[Troy Murison]

Testing is a good idea. I didn’t remember 5.1 having that TC reading feature- that’s
actually kinda cool. But can’t you capture with the TC intact from the DVCAM tapes?
I can’t remember when/where Premiere was good with capturing from DV/firewire, so
maybe that’s not possible? Again, either way would still only get you to 29.97 TC, so…

As for converting lists, we use the Quantel eQ to do this. Avid D|S has a utility
for doing this as well though I’m not personally familiar with it. The Quantel tool
exists as a stand-alone utility as well as being integrated into the system. Both
work perfectly. I know there are others out there too (EDL Max is one).

Cinema tools isn’t the perfect solution for sure. Avid is the only offline solution I
know of that really does this well. It’s the way almost every motion picture is edited
these days. Cinema tools works but requires some baby sitting and waiting but it does
work. There may be workflows and situations that bring it down that I’m not aware of.

As for using Premiere 5.1 to cut a feature (it is a feature?) I would be slightly scared…
I used to use it on a PC for long-form stuff and had some issues with audio sync and
general stability on really long timelines. And with only one timeline per project,
it gets hard to ‘version’ things and have your project still make sense. I do remember
5.1c on a PC being that way at least- don’t know about the Mac side of things.
Also, unless you’re finishing your audio in Premiere, you are limited to exporting each
audio track as a .wav or .aif to import into a audio session to sweeten. That gets
cumbersome as each individual clip on a track is ‘lost’ in the export. It’s not impossible
but there are better, more efficient options.

If renting a film composer is a option, that might be the best idea. There are lots of
folks who know/support that workflow and can help you out. I don’t know of too many
support resources to help folks editing a feature for a conform to 23.98 using
Premiere 5.1.

Again, tests and consulting with your post-house is the best bet. Hopefully this helps
a little!

-Troy Murison
Seattle, WA