Pixelated images on render to DVD

[John Rofrano]

This is quite odd. Most of us use Vegas every day to make a living and it is one of the best renders I have found. If we were all having this problem there would be much complaining but there isn’t. So let’s try and figure out why your situation is different.

Let’s start with the answers to these questions:

1. What version of Vegas are you using?
2. How are these DV clips “anamorphic”? Were they shot in true widescreen (720×480 PAR 1.2121) or were they shot in 4:3 (PAR 0.91) with an anamorphic lens adapter? or what???
3. When you drop one of these DV clips on the Vegas timeline and you look in the media properties, does it correctly identify it as widescreen PAR 1.2121?
4. What project template are you using and did you change any of the parameters from the Vegas defaults? (if so which ones?)
5. What render template are you using and did you change any of the parameters from the Vegas defaults? (if so which ones?)
6. How much are you slowing these clips down? (what is the final playback rate?)
7. What if you start a new project, drop in one of the clips, stretch to apply slow-motion, and render to MPEG2 (without changing anything else but slo-mo). How does that look?

There are lots of ways to make things look bad in Vegas if you start changing default settings (e.g, disabling resampling and then time stretching, using Track Motion inappropriately, etc.) This is why I asked for the last test which is just to drop a clip, stretch it, and render (with no other tweaks). We need to find out what is unique about your project that might be causing the results that you are seeing.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com

[Mike Kujbida]

Vance, a few things for you to consider.

I will have to do some bit-rate calculation before the entire program is burned–

I’ve been using https://www.johncline.com/bitcalc110.zip for a number of years and it hasn’t let me down yet.

The DVD test was burned at 4x on a +R Memorex although I wanted a
slower speed

As has been recommended here numerous times, stick to either Taiyo-Yuden or Verbatim.

The DVDA settings were default (which may be an issue)

For anything under 70 min. or less, I use a custom CBR of 8,000,000.
If it’s longer than that, I use the bitrate calculator mentioned above and get my VBR settings from it.

I may want to experiment with doing the mp2 as a two pass

Go ahead and try as you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Just remember that you must be doing a VBR encode (i.e. render) to be able to use the 2-pass option.

Unfortunately Vegas does not allow me to assemble pre-rendered mp2s without re-rendering them…

Vegas Pro 8 introduced “smart rendering” which means that, as long as you used the same bitrate to re-encode AND didn’t add any FX, nothing would get changed.

…so I am left to either avi the pieces or direct out mp2 (if it works …which it won’t for the entire program).

If you can’t render the entire show out to MPEG-2, render as a complete AVI, bring that back into Vegas and try the MPEG-2 render with the full AVI.
I’ve read of a few users saying that they get a better DVD by giving DVDA an AVI file and letting it choose the optimum settings instead of an MPEG-2 but I have a hard time believing this.

[Vance Bridges]

John: some of my information to Mike you may find useful.

Some of your questions require that I render and burn more DVD tests
which is forthcoming –because the issue at hand has nothing to do with what the images look like in the time line–it is purely a burn issue.

1) as to Vegas–I am using the old Vegas 7 and no I am not interested in upgrading right now or even opening up that issue. Indeed. The stuff I am doing is simple and could just as well be done in the old Veg 4 which in some respects is better than 7.
That is another discussion for another day. What we have is fine for cut and paste.

2) The wide 16/9 clips originated as such with no adapter, Conformation to the 16/9 screen has never been an issue The template is always set for that 1.2121. And originates as such. It is not letterboxed. The template stays for that when working with stills which are panned within that parameter. Nothing is 4/3
As to other tweaks–I do use color correction and sometimes use a slight deformation Tweak on the 16/9 of people that the software makes look a bit fatter–

3) the media properties originate as 1.2121 and stay there and
I render all in NTSC widescreen

4) As to defaults. It is always set at best and stays there and opens in NTSC wide. The lower
field is the default., I don’t change any of that. The audio is
not an issue. That is put on 48 –separate subject.

5. As stated to Mike the slow down in the clip was to 72% . Typically this is for slowing down a fast pan. As it may enter artifacts–yes the heavier it is the more
It will–but not a pixel mash down. The still material was pixeled as well–so it is not limited to the DV slow mo,

6) I will do your test later today. I have to take the DVD over to another place to see it in a better screen. But on standard TV 4/3 the image despite the bars looks great–Once it
goes on the 16/9 screen (rendered and originated in that template) it doesn’t look that. Great, Going direct to mp2 is fine–but attempts to render an hour project direct to mp2 won’t happen– esp. at best setting–But even at good-it may stop half way through
once it hits a high res signal,

7) the sample stays at smart for most although some hi res stuff I put it on force but that is rare…

I will continue to test.

[John Rofrano]

> Indeed. The stuff I am doing is simple and could just as well be done in the old Veg 4 which in some respects is better than 7.

Have you tried Vegas 4? Seriously, how do you know you are not up against a bug in Vegas 7? You don’t! It may have worked in 4 who knows. I realize it’s another discussion but if I were you, I would download trial of Vegas Pro 9.0 and render the timeline in question and see if it renders correctly. If it does, your problem is solved that easily. Are you at least using Vegas 7e?

> As to other tweaks–I do use color correction and sometimes use a slight deformation Tweak on the 16/9 of people that the software makes look a bit fatter–

Are you using deformation on the clips that are pixelated? Not sure why properly shot 16:9 would make anyone look fatter. The aspect ratio should not change the shot (unless your stretching 4:3 to 16:9). But that’s unimportant. If the clips that look bad are deformed try removing it.

Another thing to try is super sampling. Try turning super sampling on for just the section that is slo-mo and see if it helps. This works to improve intermediate frame generation which is what you are doing when you slow down the footage.

Question: If you render to AVI first do you still have this problem? In other word, render to AVI then drop that back in a new project and render to MPEG2. It wasn’t clear to me from the previous posts if this was successful or not. I know you loose color information this way going from 4:2:0 to 4:1:1 back to 4:2:0 (which leaves you with 4:1:0) but we’re trying to determine where this pixelation is introduced into the process.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com

[Vance Bridges]

[Donald Gibson]

“Two final comments: You can render progressive to DVD if you want as well – that might do what you want if you need a disc that will play both places. Also, I would not generally pre-resize the images and I’d normally just bring in the source pictures at full-res into Vegas. This’ll give you more options for cropping and resizing too – although I can see an argument for resizing first, since it is then drag-n-drop easy to edit without any futzing about.”

Is there a way to resize on the time line of Verges?

Don

[Donald Gibson]

Sorry about that please someone delete this wrong post
Don

[Vance Bridges]

Mike a follow-up. Per conversations with others I learned my
experience with playing SD via HD monitors is a disaster and that
other producers have this problem and hence the reason why it
looks great on standard CRT. It is in part a TV problem and the
consumers may think the video is bad when its not. It was advised that I stay within the mp2 and by-pass the avi by adjusting the settings in windows as to avoid the mp2 crashes mentioned before
(if I can) but it was also concurred to do the 2 pass with the VBR. But someone in the replication business also suggested today that I look into burning to a DVD-9 and up the bit rate to produce a cleaner
DVD for those playing on an HD monitor. He wasn’t clear on whether it was the bit rate per the mpeg 2 render or the DVDA output.

Thanks for your points and as to the DVD media as well. Any parting
thoughts on the DVD 9 ?

[Mike Kujbida]

“Any parting thoughts on the DVD 9 ?”

Vance, I’ve never burned to a DVD 9 but it does have advantages with the big one being the fact that you can use a much higher bitrate which translates to much better quality.
Using the figures you gave earlier (60 min. + 30 min. + 15 min.), I get the following VBR settings.
BTW, this assumes AC3 audio at the Vegas default of 192 Kbps.

DVD 5: 8,000,000 / 5,392,000 / 3,232,000

DVD 9: 8,000,000 / 8,000,000 / 4,800,000

If you run the 105 min. figure through the bitrate calc I mentioned above, you’ll see that it gives you a Max value of 9,440,000.
Ignore that number as it’s best to not exceed 8,000,000 on a burned DVD.
You’re sending this out for glass mastering though so it’s best to talk to the company doing this and ask them for their recommendations.

[Vance Bridges]

Thanks for the feedback some days ago. It has been determined though that 16/9 SD video no matter how well rendered will have issues with
HD players and screens–unless the player has a really good
pixel “up res” factor and there is only one touted as such: Blue Ray

Also we can add to the list of dos :

set the mpeg 2 render options to “high” quality ( ?)

set at “best”

do the two pass of course

on still images, sfx and velocity pulls set the image at
force resample and reduce interlace flicker

If a rendered avi is the source–make sure the render is at
best with the force resample and reduce flicker where needed
and possibly “interleave every frame” (this was an option
that I heard was good although the render takes longer)

Thanks