Picture at 24fps

[The Edit doctor]

First, talk about what programs/methods you are using for sure. What is the sound editor using? Protools? Omf output from Final Cut…are you definatey using Final Cut?

24fps in Final Cut still works like 23.98fps to playout of the software. Final cut has been programmed to be smart in that 24fps does not playout properly to NTSC monitor, so they modify it work like 23.98 during the editing process. The difference happens when you export a selfcontained QUICKTIME at the end.

The best and quickest advice is NOT to work at 24 in Final Cut Pro, but at 23.98. Most sound facilites mix sound from a tape of your film running at 29.97 (beta sp, digibeta etc) DVD’s are 23.98 not 24. Most any thing that involves playing on a television needs to be 23.98 with pulldown added – mostly on the tape itself or on the fly with a machine that does it. A sound person can work from a 24 Quicktime and work at 24fps, but no matter what your audio needs audio pulldown and pullup versions for video, dvd or film.

Anyway, just state what programs everybody is using to do the work and then maybe we can all help out from there.

[Kevin Ham]

Not sure what the sound editor is using. I know it’s not ProTools. He comes from a music background so he has some type of system I never heard of.

I am on FCP. I will provide the sound editor with an OMF for guide use only as I did not have a mixing board when I digitized the audio. I will also provide the sound editor a quicktime file and DVD output. Plus an Audio EDL. (Not sure yet if I can do an EDL in 24fps.)

I previously worked on a project that was in HD and the frame rate was listed as 23.98 in FCP. This film project says 24fps, not 23.98fps, so not sure if that is a problem.

When you say don’t work in 24fps, well I’m already done so not sure what to say on that.

Do I just deal with the 23.98fps when I’m ready to put this on DVD (via Compressor) so I can have the Sound Editor stay at 24fps?

[The Edit doctor]

Was does the footage/clips (not timeline) in FCP say it’s framerate is? 23.98 or 24?

Did you sync up the audio to the picture shot by shot, was it already locked to the picture, and is this audio not the final master audio?

[Kevin Ham]

The frame rate says 24.

I had to sync up each shot myself. The audio was on separate cassettes.

The audio from the cassettes is the source audio that the sound editor will use.

[Aaron Neitz]

Ok, how in the world did you get 24.0fps media from BetaSP? And then all your sequences are 24.0fps *for sure*?

Most sound editors can work at 24 or 29.97 – 29.97 is the exact same speed as 23.98 in terms of slowdown. So if I’m editing in 23.98 HD, I run a 29.97 Digibeta downconversion which adds 3:2 to make up the frames and give that to him to mix to. The files he returns match perfectly with my 23.98 timeline.

If you’re REALLY in 24.0 land, export a QT at 24, give that to him, have him work at 24, and bring that file back in. When you export for DVD everything is going to get slowed down the 1% – though I have no idea if Compressor will correctly handle the slowdown on audio.

[Kevin Ham]

Yeah it’s true 24.0fps because I digitized the 29.97fps Beta SP footage from telecine into my FCP, then went through Cinema Tools to convert the footage to new 24fps shots. I had no flex files so I manually entered in the key numbers for each shot. It was a HUGE pain.

I did all that work because I thought we were going to make a cut list.

So having the sound editor stay at 24fps will make it a lot easier for both him and me.

Hopefully I won’t have a problem when I burn this to DVD.

Thanks!

[Aaron Neitz]

Try this: when you get your 24 mix back, put it to your timeline and make sure it all matches. Export the movie self-contained, tell Cinema tools to coform the frame rate to 23.98, bring it back into a new 23.98 FCP timeline, and put the 24fps mix against it… then speed modify the mix to 99.91% and it should be in sync. Then that’ll export fine for DVD.

[Kevin Ham]

Thanks. I’ll try that.

I wonder what would happen if I stayed at 24fps for the DVD output?

[Gary Adcock]

[SPeditor] “I wonder what would happen if I stayed at 24fps for the DVD output?”

it will not play properly on a NTSC TV set (bad)
OR
the DVD player will slow the footage down for you (worst)

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

[The Edit doctor]

There is no 24 fps dvd format. It’s 23.98 or 29.97 in NTSC. This was my point about starting in 23.98 throughout for many, many reasons. 24 fps work is for audiofile purists who are going to film, nontheless, at somepoint, this 24frame mix will need to be slowed to 99.9 percent to accomidate dvd or television distribution.

In your case like gary said, export your 24fps quicktime to the soundguy and let him work at 24 frame per second. But in the end, conform your master to 23.98 master quicktime (using cinema tools) for converting to 29.97(with proper pulldown) , Pal…whatever the need that arises.