Panasonic’s 720p 23.98 – a fake format

[Walter Biscardi]

[aaronowen] “My question is this: how does one output from an edit system and keep this all important metadata in-tact???”

From my understanding, you would need to master directly to an HDCAM or D5 deck in the 23.98 format to stay in that frame rate. I don’t believe FCP can lay back a true 23.98 timeline to a DVCPro HD deck and have that deck record the flagged frames for extraction later.

I haven’t had to do this as all of our masters are 59.94 for networks, but the only 23.98 Masters I’ve heard of have been mastered to D5.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
https://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network’s “Good Eats”
HD Editorial for “Assignment Earth”

“I reject your reality and substitute my own!” – Adam Savage, Mythbusters

[Shane Ross]

And I have only mastered from FCP at 23.98 and 59.94 to D5 and HDCAM…never output anything for onlining on another system using the DVCPRO HD format.

But I did edit a short film that was shot on 16mm, telecined to D5 at 23.98, dubbed to DVCAM at 29.97. I captured that tape, reverse telecined and edited at 23.98…then gave an EDL to the online colorist who did all the finishing work on a Flame. But that was true 23.98 tape…not the DVCPRO HD 59.94 with 23.98 flags.

Sorry man…don’t know what to say.

Shane

Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net

[Gary Adcock]

[aaronowen] “the offline reference tape however apparently does NOT have this metadata because if I try to capture it in either smoke or FCP, I get the duplicate frames due to the pulldown cadence.”

Duh. with your offline you have removed the metadata, how can you change formats and do an offline and expect to maintain the data’s integrity.

“I get the duplicate frames due to the pulldown cadence.” you do not have the ability to remove the redundant frames? since when?
You have any number of ways to output the files to achieve the 23.98. SInce you do not say how you outputted the “offline” back to tape, how are we supposed to understand.

“My question is this: how does one output from an edit system and keep this all important metadata in-tac” output via FW or using a Kona Card and Kona Tv – the HDSDI out of FCP does NOT support this, but there are tools that do. Sorry but your Decklink card does not support this type of functionality.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

[Aaronowen]

[gary adcock] “Duh. with your offline you have removed the metadata, how can you change formats and do an offline and expect to maintain the data’s integrity.”
I’m not changing formats; I input the clips over firewire into FCP, cut my offline and then output to the same DVCPro HD tape via firewire. FCP did output the pulldown correctly, but did so without the metadata. I’m wondering if FCP has the ability to output the metadata and how this is done.

[gary adcock] “you do not have the ability to remove the redundant frames? since when?
You have any number of ways to output the files to achieve the 23.98. SInce you do not say how you outputted the “offline” back to tape, how are we supposed to understand.”
I should have been more clear when describing my tests. When I load the footage, I used firewire; when I output my offline for reference, I used firewire to goto DVCProHD 720p 23.98 tapes. What I meant by not being able to remove the redundant frames is that when I recapture the offline- either in smoke or final cut; both systems cannot recognize how to remove the pulldown because of the lack of metadata so I’m left with a clip running at 59.94 with pulldown. Panasonic’s framerate converter cannot be used in this situation because the plugin requires the metadata to be present in order to know how to deal with the frames. This metadata was stripped off when I laid off my offline. This is why I’m asking exactly how to keep the metadata in-tact when outputting from FCP. You suggested firewire or the Kona; I wasn’t able to get firewire to work and I’m wondering why. I’m not buying a kona just for this.

All my questions are theoretical becuase I’m currently testing the workflow and am finding major issues.

[Aaronowen]

[walter biscardi] “From my understanding, you would need to master directly to an HDCAM or D5 deck in the 23.98 format to stay in that frame rate. I don’t believe FCP can lay back a true 23.98 timeline to a DVCPro HD deck and have that deck record the flagged frames for extraction later.”
If you were to master to either D5 or HDCAM, you would be either using the real 720p running at 59.94 with advanced pulldown or uprezing to 1080 running at 23.98psf. Neither are too attractive becuase with the 1080 option you are blowing up the picture and with the 720p@59.94 option you are inserting a pulldown cadence that’s not easily removed.

-AO

[Gary Adcock]

[aaronowen] ” I output my offline for reference, I used firewire to goto DVCProHD 720p 23.98 tapes. What I meant by not being able to remove the redundant frames is that when I recapture the offline- either in smoke or final cut; both systems cannot recognize how to remove the pulldown”

you have never said what app versions you are running- and this is not something that can be done in previous versions of FCP or Smoke.

FCP 5.1 2 has the ability to properly flag 720p 23.98 DVCPROHD content back out over FW, IF the deck is set properly to accept the user bits and ancillary info.

“Panasonic’s framerate converter cannot be used in this situation because the plugin requires the metadata to be present in order to know how to deal with the frames” Correct – the software FRC is primarily used for off-speed content not normally for simple cadence removal as most current NLEs respond correctly with 720p24 flags to remove the redundant frames on capture.

The current versions of Cinema Tools is quite capable of handling a reverse telecine on this material however.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

[Aaronowen]

[gary adcock] “you have never said what app versions you are running- and this is not something that can be done in previous versions of FCP or Smoke.”

I’m running FCP 5.1.2 and Autodesk Smoke 2007.

[gary adcock] “FCP 5.1 2 has the ability to properly flag 720p 23.98 DVCPROHD content back out over FW, IF the deck is set properly to accept the user bits and ancillary info.”

Where in FCP and/or what deck setting accomplishes this task? The I can’t seem to find the info in the manual for the deck and I’m not sure where the option would be in FCP. There is a user bit that I can preset; bit it seems to be an aux TC track which is a place that can handle TOD code or some other pertinent time data such as sound TC or something. When you say ancillary info, where is this recorded?

[gary adcock] “The current versions of Cinema Tools is quite capable of handling a reverse telecine on this material however. “

Can you explain a bit more on this?

[Sean Oneil]

This is why I always capture Varicam footage at the framerate it was shot on using Firewire and the appropriate Easy Setup. It removes redundant frames on the fly during capture but retains the original timecode that is on the tape.

If you shoot 23.98, but capture and edit at 59.94, cadence will be broken and you are in a world of trouble should you choose leave the FW world. I’ve been there. The non-FCP/Firewire/DVCpro world does not take into account that a film framerate can exist within the 720p59.94 standard. If it has bad cadence, I don’t think a Teranex can even fix that.

Rarely in the broadcast world will you find 720p masters of footage shot at a film framerate. I’ve certainly never seen it. 720p masters are from live sporting events, etc., and are shot at 30p or 60p. No cadence issues, no redudant frames, nothing like that.

In the new world of HD, I think it is very, very important that people capture, edit, and master everything at the true framerate. When it gets to broadcast, they can add pulldown from the playback equipment. All feature films are mastered at 1080psf23.98.

Varicam footage at 23.98 should be mastered at this format as well when going to D5 or HDCam, 1080psf23.98.

[Matt Silverman]

Gary, I work with Aaron who posted the original question. I was the one who told him to jump on the cow and see if he can get any info. For you to respond to his question with “Duh.”, is really quite lame. He had a very relevant question… “Duh” might be appropriate if someone asked if FCP can work on a Mac, and you were a 12 year old responding.

So to simplify his question and clarify some of your “answers”:

We work a lot with clients who shoot DVCProHD 23.98. Typically these jobs are cut in FCP, with final delivery for digital signage, web, or projection at 23.98 (ie. we need to deliver a DVCProHD or P-JPEG QT 23.98 progressive). Sometimes these jobs need serious color correction and finishing, and we would like to do this CC in smoke. We have not found any solution to roundtrip footage out of a FCP 720p 23.98 timeline and into the smoke, then back into a QT on the Mac.

The reason for this problem is due to the fact that as Aaron pointed out the 720 spec only allows for 60fps or 59.94fps. When we are working D1 or 1080, we typically send shots back and forth from Mac to Smoke or Avid via Decklink SDI or HDSDI with crash captures. 720 23.08 doesn’t allow us to do this… when it plays out to the HDSDI it replicates the frames to get back to the standard 59.94fps spec. If we capture this into a Smoke 720p project, we end up with the redundant frames. We have ways around this in smoke, but the problem is then how do we get back to the Mac 24p. Since smoke is running 59.94, we need to capture this material back into a 59.94 FCP setup, not a 23.98 setup. And since it lost all the metadata when it went over to the smoke, the frame-rate convertor will not work to throw away the redundant frames. You mentioned Cinema Tools, but from our tests it did not help. Please explain how you would do this…

We recently upgraded to the current version of smoke (2007) which supposedly had better Varicam support, but as I suspected it still is relying on the metadata. We figured that the only way to preserve the metadata was to lay off the sequence from FCP to a DVCProHD deck then capture it back into the smoke. This did not work. We are running the latest versions of both FCP and Smoke. You said that FCP can output the metadata if the deck if everything is setup correctly. We do not see any options for this in the manual. What exactly are we looking for?

If there is no solution we will write our own DVCPro Frame Rate Convertor which will analyze the clip rather than using the metadata.

-Matt Silverman
Creative Director
Phoenix Editorial | Designs
San Francisco

[Matt Silverman]

We are having this problem with firewire capturing 24p. The 720 format just sucks..

As for film mastering, I believe that most films are finished to D5 24p, not 23.98psf. This is one of the advantages of D5… true 24p, not progressive segmented frames.

Your last comment about varicam mastering… What is Panasonic’s recommended workflow? Blow up your master when capturing? Or work 720 then uprez before laying off? I guess you have no other option, since 24p doesn’t exist on D5…