Panasonic’s 1/3″ DV vs Sony’s 2/3″ DVCAM

[Noah Kadner]

Hard to say without a shipping HVX200 to test. Remember it’s also Hidef vs. SD, 2/3″ vs. 1/3″ and also way better potential glass on an ENG style camera like the Sony, 24p vs. 60i ,etc. Pretty much Apples to Oranges.

Noah

[Rodrigo Lizana]

Hard to say if you haven

[Deleted User]

[Chris Baldwin] “Would the DV footage shot with the 1/3″ CCDs of Panasonic’s DVX200 look better than DVCAM footage shot with the 2/3″ CCD’s in Sony’s DSR 500WS? I can and need to buy one camera or the other and the client prefers the DVCAM footage with the 2/3″ CCD Sony camera. I’d love to make the case to them that the DV footage with the DVX200 would be look beter or as good as the DVCAM footage with the Sony camera.”

Ah, now there’s the “$25,000” question! 😉

I’ve been pondering a similar question for the past several months, and made my final decision just today. More on that later.

If you frequently shoot in small-ish size rooms and if achieving a narrow depth of field focus “look” in your shots is not a high priority, then a 1/3″ CCD cam such as Panasonic’s forthcoming HVX200 might be an excellent choice for generating good-looking, native 16:9 DV footage (and HD footage too, of course). However, if narrow DOF is a frequent priority for your shooting, and especially if you shoot in small rooms (where you’re more limited in how much a long focal length zoom can achieve narrow DOF), then a larger 2/3″ CCD cam might be a better choice.

Although we’ll have to wait until the “multi-definition” (HD & SD) HVX200 ships to see how it compares to pro native 16:9 2/3″ standard definition cams (such as the Sony DSR-500/570WSL and their new new DSR-450WSL, or the Panasonic SDX-900 & SPX-800 and so forth) in terms of overall image quality, depth of field is one characteristic which is somewhat predictable in advance. For example, Panavision has an excellent DOF & angle of view calculator on their website:
https://www.panavision.co.nz/main/kbase/reference/calcFOVform.asp

Although I think the HVX200 is likely to be a great cam, and the JVC HD100, too, for me the DOF issue was one of several I couldn’t “avoid”. I put avoid in quotes because I don’t mean this as a negative criticism of the 1/3″ cams, but it’s just a “fact of life”.

One of my biggest clients really, really wants narrower DOF field than what can typically be achieved with a 1/3″ imager; none of my clients have a current need for HD; all of my clients want better-looking SD video than what I can currently produce with my 1/3″ DSR-250; sometimes my clients want the benefits of native 16:9; sometimes my clients want the benefit of in-camera 24p; and _I_ wanted a fullsize, shoulder-mount cam with both Firewire and SDI outputs. So, for myself and my client’s budgets my choice — this month >grin< -- was to order today one of Sony's new DSR-450WSL DVCAM camcorders, which just started shipping this week. https://tinyurl.com/cgl8b

But everyone’s “calculations” vary for numerous reasons. There aren’t any easy choices. This year, more than most years, we have lots & lots of very good cameras to choose from. Hooray for choice! 🙂

All the best,

– Peter

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[Nick B]

At the London Production show one stand had the full range of Sony Camera’s looking at the same scene i felt the Z1 looked better than the new DV450 infact the Z1 looked better than digibeta !

This was i guess the uncompressed o/p of each camera as they were ‘live’ pics pointing at a detailed scene.

Ok not very scientific test as it is hard to tell at a busy show but the uncompressed output of the Z1 was very good indeed, i expect the Panasonic to at least equal the Z1 at 1080i but without hdv issues.

Unless Panasonic realy mess up i cannot imagine anyone not being impressed by the pictures, if you can cope with the P2 it has to be the best quality camera for the money.

The JVC showed a filmic digibeta look and should not be dismissed and felt a nicer camera than the Z1

[Rainer Wirth]

I don’t believe, that a 1/3 inch is better than a 2/3 inch chip. I think, that any 2/3 inch new camera system with a proper lens is better than a 1/3 HDV cam with a wide angle adapter in Front.

Rainer

[Mitch Ives]

[NICK B] “At the London Production show one stand had the full range of Sony Camera’s looking at the same scene i felt the Z1 looked better than the new DV450 infact the Z1 looked better than digibeta !
“

Except all they ever show is the camera hooked to a monitor. Ask them to record things to tape and play it back for you. They won’t. I asked this at NAB. Why won’t they? Because HDV cameras look much better when hooked to a camera than they do when playing it back from tape.

BTW, did you pan and zoom? We were a bit put off by the artifiacting…

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com

[Mitch Ives]

Nice analysis Peter. It’s always good to see how other people process the info and compare it to how we see things… it would be good to here your thoughts on the 450, though this probably isn’t the right forum for it…

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com

[Accountclosedduetopolicyviolations]

[NICK B] “At the London Production show one stand had the full range of Sony Camera’s looking at the same scene i felt the Z1 looked better than the new DV450 infact the Z1 looked better than digibeta !”

I did tests on Z1 compared to DVCPRO910.
I find your statement hard to believe.
jiri vrozina

[Deleted User]

[Jiri Vrozina] “[NICK B] “At the London Production show one stand had the full range of Sony Camera’s looking at the same scene i felt the Z1 looked better than the new DV450 infact the Z1 looked better than digibeta !”

I did tests on Z1 compared to DVCPRO910.
I find your statement hard to believe.”

Me too, Jiri, but sometimes people say “better” when they mean “sharper”, as in “video detail”. But that’s a guess on my part; I don’t mean to put words into Nick’s mouth.

It’s interesting to me that here we have one manufacturer (in this case, Sony) who markets two “1 megapixel” camcorders (in this case, the Z1 and the DSR-450WSL; I’m talking about the actual CCD resolution, not the videotape recording format), one of which weighs about twice as much, contains probably about twice as much electronics, has 2/3″ CCDs instead of 1/3″ CCDs, can use a _real_ lens (including real HD lenses costing dozens of thousands of $), and has a SDI output option, and (in the case of a side-by-side shoot-out style comparison going “live” straight to monitors, not playing from tape) … the smaller, far less-expensive cam “looks better”???

Like I said, maybe the Z1 looked “sharper” (as in too much “video detail”), but better? Really? Why/how would Sony do that? Why/how do they make more than twice as much metal, plastic, glass and electronics look “worse”? I’m asking.

Sure, Sony _might_ do it, maybe they _have_ done it, but why? Does Sony think their “pro” customers are dupes? Again, I’m asking; I don’t know the answer.

In any event, this week I bet around $19,000 USD of my own money that the DSR-450WSL looks “better”, at least in some ways, compared to a Z1. However, I may have made a huge mistake; how can one tell?

I haven’t received the camcorder yet, but I got a PDF copy of the manual in advance of the shipment; so, back to some light reading …

All the best,

– Peter

Just a friendly reminder to all: Please consider filling-in your COW user profile information so we have a better idea who you are, where you’re from, and so forth. It’s the friendly thing to do. Thanks!

[Simon Wyndham]

Peter, you have hit the nail on the head here.

The Z1 and FX1 are set as default with a lot of digital edge enhancement. Like you say, many people describe ‘better’ as meaning ‘edgy’. I too have found the actual real detail in the FZ1 and Z1 to be lacking. So much so that I really do think a high end SD camera that is upressed produces a better result. My only use for a Z1 at the moment, and something I will be using someone elses camera for, is to shoot slow motion with it (line double the alternate fields) for output into SD.

Unfortunately most people only ever seem to look at resolution in a picture or ‘sharpness’ (often artificially introduced). They forget about the cameras dynamic range and contrast capabilities.

I think that the HVX200 will probably be a great camera however. But even Panasonic will want to protect their higher end cameras such as the SDX900 etc.