P2 .MXF’s question yet again…

[Vince Becquiot]

Hi Tim,

MXF has a complex structure with separate audio,video and metadata folders. When you are renaming in FCP, you are renaming an intermediate file, not the native footage.

Vince Becquiot

Kaptis Studios
San Francisco – Bay Area

[Alex Udell]

Hi,

the reason you can do that in FCP is precisely because it transcodes to a new separate file that is no longer of the MXF specification and no longer dependent on that folder structure and metadata. So it becomes just another OS file.

Based on your query I did some reading about MXF (again to remind myself about it). Suffice it to say, renaming files based on this structured media for use in any platform or app is not a simple process.

BUT

I think I have what may be a workable solution for you.

I’ll assume for the moment that you are working on a Mac because you talk about coming from FCP.

Take a look at this youtube clip re: Raylight for Mac

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S6VMlLuiNc&feature=player_embedded

1) Backup P2 Card to your your mac
2) Use Panasonics’s P2 CMS software to edit P2 Metadata (like “User Clip name” for example
3) then you use Raylight for Mac to Create Quicktime link files that point to the MXF. From what I gather, these file names will be based on your metadata editing. So you end up with usable meaningful searchable clip names from OS standpoint.
4) From there You OUGHT, and I say OUGHT cause I haven’t tested it, to simply drag and drop into PPro and edit with these Link files (that point to the original MXF media). But then you’ll have useful info in PPro as well.

So what this does is makes your MXF based material more accessable, and searchable at the OS level and initially in the Project Panel of PPro.

What this does NOT do is alleviate the need to maintain the MXF folder structure for which these pointing files are still dependent.

It also does not answer Migrating files other OS’s, or Managing the folder structures, but it looks like Raylight may have some tools for that on their site as well (mentioned in the youtube clip).

And at the end of the day….if you want that level of ease of file migration….then really you’re probably looking at a true transcode anyway in which it will no longer be necessary to maintain the underlying MXF folder structure, but then…that’s not native editing.

hope that helps some….

(and no…I don’t work for DVFilm) 🙂 )

Alex Udell
Editing, Motion Graphics, and Visual FX

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[Tim Parsons]

I really appreciate your replies!

@Vince: I understand that P2 has a complex structure of necessity and that FCP transcodes into a brand new file, but as my original question states, I want the workflow without the transcoding. Read further to see more of what I mean by this.

@Alex: At the moment, I cant see the video you linked due to workplace network restrictions. And sorry for the confusion; I am on a PC now. Our Macs were pre-Intel-ancient, so we decided the most cost-effective upgrade was to go PC.

That being said, I think I understand from your step by step outline that Raylight creates a sort of proxy for each complete MXF I want to use, and I would then edit those proxies (or I suppose “shortcut” would be more accurate) in Premiere or whatever editing application and it would simply reference the original MXFs right?

Well, to me that seems like it would be ok, but I think there should be a better way.

DISCLAIMER: the following is what I think today’s technology should be able to do, based on… well, not much. So I could be wrong. I just think this should be possible.

If you were to buy any cheap consumer point-and-shoot camera, it comes with its own software that allows you to view the contents of the camera and copy the contents to your hard drive. Some of these cheap softwares even let you organize and rename the pictures.

The cheap camera software does nothing but selectively rename and selectively copy. No conversion or anything.

Similarly, I want to be able to have an application or Premiere feature that will allow me to open my P2 CONTENTS folder, view the clips on the card (not just thumbnails, but previews I can scrub through), rename the clips (which would then rename the corresponding video, audio, and metadata files to match), choose which clips I want to keep, and select a destination folder on my hard drive. So far, FCP 7 can do all this.

Here’s where my idea kicks in: instead of transcoding… simply copy. Just copy. No transcoding, only copying from one folder to another. My theoretical application/feature would copy the CONTENTS folder to your destination, bringing with it only those files which you specified to keep, and renaming the clip to your desired name on all levels of metadata.

Boom. Done. And now we have the proper P2 folder structure, full quality copies of the original MXFs, and the only things different are the names, and content of the folders (imagine that, we only have shots we want to keep!).

Call me crazy, but that sounds remarkably simple. But before you go telling me that I should develop it, let me tell you that I don’t know programming whatsoever. But I have seen similar technologies at work. I don’t think it would be too hard to combine them into one simple, streamlining tool.

Am I wrong?

[Alex Udell]

Raylight does have tools for Windows as well.

Technically if you mount a P2 Card.

use Premiere Pro’s media Browser to import only the clips you want into a Ppro project.

then use Premiere’s Project Manager to make a copy of that project to a new location. You end up with a P2 set that only contains the files you wanted to keep (as opposed to everything) that was originally on the card.

This doesn’t handle the file naming though.

Alex

[Tim Parsons]

[Alex Udell] “use Premiere’s Project Manager to make a copy of that project to a new location.”

Ah, see that’s interesting! Thanks for the tip. I just might use that!

[Alex Udell] “This doesn’t handle the file naming though.”

That’s a shame. :/ So there’s no way to truly rename an MXF? None whatsoever?

[Tim Parsons]

[Alex Udell] “This doesn’t handle the file naming though.”

Ok, I just tested that out. It does indeed give the option to rename the source clip to match project names.

But here’s the catch: I opened a different project and imported one of the renamed clips… and the imported clip was the original serialized name!! Grrrr!

Why can the original metadata not be touched?! I am totally baffled by this! It’s not a strange concept.

[Shane Ross]

Here we go again…people switching NLEs and wanting the new one to behave exactly like the one they came from.

Premiere has a different editing philosophy than FCP. It like to work with files in their native format…untouched. NO converting, use the footage right away. Downside is that you cannot sections of clips, cannot rename the files other than inside the app, and need to use the full card structure, even if you only use certain clips, as if you mess with the card structure, you can make things not work.

When you use FCP it means that you have to transcode, but it also means that you have new media that you can name what you want, it is now QT, you only need to import what you need, you can import sections of footage…all that. Some people think there is a downside to transcoding. There is, but there are also advantages. Just as there are advantages and disadvantages to working native.

In the Avid, ALL of the organizing is done inside the app. You don’t go to the drive and mess with the imported media files at all. The files can be edited native, or transcoded (best to transcode), and you can name the files what you want, but in the media folder, the clips are give long 32-character names that are VERY unique. Avid tracks these clips all inside the app. Very little, if any, management is done on the desktop level.

This is why editors, unless they have assistants at their beck and call on every job, need to know the ins and outs of their NLE…creative and technical.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def

[Alex Udell]

A quick search on google again results in that while many people like yourself ask this question….the answers remain the same.

Native MXF files are named this way and dependent on the structure for a lot of complex reasons most notably to create a situation in which, when large amounts of material is acquired, you don’t end up with name collisions. I know most users don’t care so it seems silly. To a certain extent, I agree.

So you really have 3 choices:

1) Get out of native MXF via a true transcode, then you can name the file whatever you want. But you lose metadata you might want and this is slow.

2) Use something like Raylight to create Pointing Continer clips. This is faster, you can option use and maintain the MXF metadata in your pipeline, you can give the pointer files meaningful names so OS search is easier, but you still have to maintain the folder stuctures, and you may still need to transcode for hand off to other artists or OS’s or apps that aren’t friendly to it.

3) Look at something like CATDV, an media asset manager that sits on top of the OS and gives you a useful way to make use of the metadata of MXF plus any other way you want to tag your media, search it, and make selection sets for use in your editor.

That’s really the state of things at this point as far as I can tell.

Alex

MXF created by engineers for engineers 🙂

[Tim Parsons]

[Alex Udell] “So you really have 3 choices…”

Thanks for the tips, Alex. Though I kinda wish there was a 4th option of “have complete control over your assets so you can manage, control, and organize them in whatever manner works best for your workflow.”

[Tom Daigon]

Tim, there is an option like that. Its called Avid 😀

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / PrP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
Mac Pro 3,1
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