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OT: tapeless workflow- required reading
https://digitalcinemasociety.org/CurrentNewsletter.php
Scroll down a bit to read James Mathers’ article. He talks about the adjustment to digital workflows across the industry, including completion bonds & negative insurance.
Arnie
Now in post: Peristroika, a film by Slava Tsukerman
https://www.arniepix.com/blog -
9 Replies
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I know that I was one of the first to work with the P2 format in broadcast television, and I have always been a champion for the format. But man, archiving has cropped up to be a major issue. And really, I feel SO MUCH BETTER with having a tape on the shelf. Already archived, lasts 20-30 years, costs very little.
Yes, you heard me…tapeless acquisition is beginning to worry me.
Shane
Littlefrog PostGETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD now for sale!
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Why?
What’s wrong with XDCAM?
I’m getting an EX1 and have the option of going to XDCAM disc for back up as well as Blu-Ray and even DL-DVD. Of course it depends on what you mean by “archive.” For corporate video, if it has a shelf life of 5-10 years it’ll outlive its usefulness. -
Well, shooting with the EX and archiving to the XDCAM disk might be the exception. But then you have to rent an XDCAM deck, right? Unless you already own one.
Archiving P2 back to tape isn’t really viable. 24PN to tape would record as 720p 59.94, and NOT record the flags that indicate it is 23.98 footage…not like a varicam can. And even then you have to buy the $25,000 deck, so why not then archive to LTO or something….but that isn’t cheap either, and is slow.
It’s just that the “tapeless” workflow isn’t really much of a time saver, nor money saver…in the end. MAYBE in the long LONG haul, money saver….but not time. I am finding it more and more complicated to work with…and that is an issue.
Shane
Littlefrog PostGETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD now for sale!
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[Shane Ross] “Well, shooting with the EX and archiving to the XDCAM disk might be the exception. But then you have to rent an XDCAM deck, right? Unless you already own one.
“Sony will have a “dumb” recorder out by NAB for $2500. Computer USB to XDCAM player/recorder. Ment to be a feeder/recorder to NLE systems.
For those few who had preproduction EX1s, they say it takes about 5 mintues to dump 50 minutes of video (2 8GB cards or one 16GB card). Even with about 3x speed to XDCAM disc one can ingest and make 2 backups for double protection (and you’d have it on your hard drive too at that point) faster than tape ingest. If you’re handing material to clients you can put on DL-DVD.
I think P2 with it’s folder of files is a PIA.
Sony will distribute a free viewer. In theory one can do a shoot, dump the master clips on some DL-DVDs and put the viewer on the disc too. Client can view the masters without the need of a deck. That can even beat HDV with its multiple formats.
There is one catch with the EX1 they have to resolve Camera records 1920×1080 at 35mbps whereas 330/5 and 350/5 record at 1440×1080.
XDCAM disc only saves at 1440×1080 so Sony may have to change something to avoid the downconvert . . . otherwise Blu-Ray looks better for archive.
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I remember your posts from that period, advising on comparison of HVX200 vs Canon XH A1…
Not only the archiving, but the aquisition is a nightmare.
It’d wotk for so narrow group of projects, ano not work with anything what requires long
sessions of recording (complete event video industry, some docos etc.)Secondly, to have it working, one should have another person just for transferring footage
on the field and additional gear (laptop, hrad drives).
Well, if you’ve got money for 20 P2 cards you might be OK.This workflow is so much more expensive than anything else in this ball park,
that I never could =understand scuh hype about it.I doubt that anything can beat a tape and a Firestore combination.
Tape for archiving and Firestore for DTE.Mick
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Those are the reasons why I like the EX1.
2 8GB cards hold 50 minutes total (or 70 at 25mbps)
2 16GB cards will hold 100 minutes (or 140 at 25mbps)
Depending on what your shoot day is like that might be enough.2 32GB cards would be 200 or 280 minutes! Although can cost as much as buying a good MacBookPro unless the press falls below what the P2 equivalents cost.
The camera will come with 2 8GB cards and I can buy a 16GB card to give me a total of 100 or 140 minutes record time. That can cover a good part of a typical shoot day.
Given that it seems SxS transfers at much faster than P2 (10 to 15 times real time depending on other factors), offload isn’t too disruptive.
If I go the laptop route on a shoot, I can burn a couple of DL-DVDs and the client can walk with 50 minutes of master footage that he can actually view!
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If you read the article, you’ll see that Mathers is comparing the S2 disk recorders to shooting film or HDCam SR. He points out that after something like 30 feature films, S2 hasn’t lost a single frame of video. That assumes people dedicated (and trained) to running it on set.
Tapeless is not for everyone. Film is not for everyone. Mini DV is not for everyone. Every project has it’s own set of needs & limitiations.
Shane, for Perestroika, we archived 8GB cards to dual-layer DVDs. 30 hours of footage fit in a gallon zip-lock bag. With 16GB cards out, I’d structure the archive around blu-ray. With 32GB cards, I’d probably just have to kill myself.
Arnie
Now in post: Peristroika, a film by Slava Tsukerman
https://www.arniepix.com/blog -
[Arniepix] “hane, for Perestroika, we archived 8GB cards to dual-layer DVDs. 30 hours of footage fit in a gallon zip-lock bag. With 16GB cards out, I’d structure the archive around blu-ray.”
Yeah, for the two shows I used this format for, we had the 4GB cards, so I have 80 DVDs for one, and 60 DVDs for another. Oh, that took a LONG time. I might look into Blu-Ray now…seeing as I have a SERIES coming up that will incorporate some P2.
[Arniepix] “With 32GB cards, I’d probably just have to kill myself.”
LOL! I hear ya.
Now, with RED coming out, and being TAPELESS too…I asked them, what would THEY archive on. Their answer…Tape backup like LTO. So…that is a thought too. Just…$$$$. But, all the money you saved getting a RED, get the backup solution.
Shane
Littlefrog PostGETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD now for sale!
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Not just Red! SI2k, Dalsa, Vision, Infinity, EditCam, the list grows every year. The irony of “tapeless” acquisition is that you may ultimately have to back up to something like LTO tape.
Arnie
Now in post: Peristroika, a film by Slava Tsukerman
https://www.arniepix.com/blog
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