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OT Sony sells Vegas?
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[Andrew Kimery] ”
It’s pretty crazy to think that Premiere had been crapped/seen as an ‘also ran’ for nearly 25yrs before it finally started being taken seriously on higher profile projects. I used Premiere 6.5 in the late 90’s/early 00’s and even in the no/low budget world you would get ignore unless you had FCP (or magically had access to an Avid). A big reason I moved from Windows and Premiere to FCP and a Mac is because I couldn’t find any work with Premiere”Definitely! I’ve been using Premiere since v4.0, and this was the perception for most of those years. I admit, it really was that bad for a while, but I think Premiere’s reputation was more important than it’s capabilities to a lot of people for a long time. I mostly worked in corporate production though, so Premiere skills on Windows was a lot more marketable… it paid well, but you were NOT getting cool points for that kind of work. 🙂
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[Andrew Kimery] “lack of info that the FCP suite (plus Final Cut Server) would be pulled from store shelves the moment X was launched.”
You.
Can.
Buy.
It.
Today.
Right now. Today. You can have it with free shipping by Sunday, which is miraculous to me. A Sunday in the middle of a three day holiday weekend, for free with your Amazon Prime membership.
For only $8.95, you can have it tomorrow.
For another $3.95, you can have it gift wrapped.
Object to anything and everything you want to. Object to Apple pulling it off shelves. But the idea that it was EVER not available, for a single second, is simply not the case.
It’s available now, five years later.
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[David Roth Weiss] “finding knowlegable Premiere editors is much, much easier here than finding knowledgable FCPX editors”
No official polling results here, either, but I find the opposite: finding knowledgeable FCPX clients/facilities is much harder than finding Premiere clients/facilities.
I see lots of people who run facilities, or network operations, who made the leap to Premiere based mostly on FUD. And those of us who work for and with these folks now have to live with the consequences.Unlike many of those who post here on the COW, those of us who work in LA usually don’t get a say in the matter. If you do promo work for NBC, you use Avid, because NBC on-air promo uses Avid. And they do the finishing. ABC dropped FCP7 for Premiere. So if your’e a vendor for ABC promo, you better get used to Premiere. And so on.
I read, wistfully, of those on this board who are hired to produce, edit and deliver projects, without being told what platform to edit on. Every client I’ve worked with who sees me working with FCPX has expressed shock and delight at how quickly and smoothly the work gets done. But since just about everyone in Hollywood is an expert in everything, it often comes down to some know-nothing manager dictating the platform. “We need an Avid editor…we need a Premiere editor…we need an After Effects editor (what the hell is an AE editor, anyway? who edits in AE?)…”
PS – I just don’t get the “Premiere is the FCP8 we really wanted” trope. I don’t find Premiere to be anything like FCP Legacy. Other than having tracks. 😉
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[Tim Wilson] “As enthusiastic as I’ve been about X, I don’t think it’s even a little self-evident that there are NECESSARILY advantages to adapting to it, or indeed that X NECESSARILY represents new thinking. “
Odd.
I edited for 11+ years straight in Legacy before X. After X, a truly significant percentage of my thinking about the most fundamental processes of editing operations had changed. Your contention must be that I could have done all the same transitional thinking about editing processes if I was using using AVID or PPro or Vegas? I actually don’t think so. I doubt any of those would have involved me studying tagging and taxonomy the same way. Or considering new approaches to the processes of story construction as I have.
I’m kinda arguing that how X was designed was a fundamental trigger moving me away from how I used to conceptualize editing operations before X — and how I might conceptualize them differently going forward.
But that’s just me – one guy who actually took that journey and made that change.
[Tim Wilson] “For most of the editing world, ie, everyone using everything else, X represents neither disruption nor innovation. It simply doesn’t factor in.”
Well, sure, but thats like saying that the introduction of the first iPods had little to no effect on people who were in the living rooms listening to LPs. It’s accurate but kinda misses the larger point.
In that case, and in hindsight, it was a signal that EVERYTHING was changing.
As evidence, I’d note that we’ve already seen the pretty clear migration of X thinking into Premier Pro via “hover scrub” and the soon to arrive and much heralded “proxy workflow.” and to BlackMagic via Resolves “X-like” features- so there MUST have been something seminal going on in the X elevation of these ideas – or the NLE evolution wouldn’t have taken it’s recent JOG into those so obviously “X-influenced” directions.
New signature under construction and coming soon. Please stand by…
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[Andrew Kimery] “When iMovie ’08 dropped, customers weren’t pissed because their home movie editing expertise had been devalued, they were pissed because the new version of iMovie had far few features than the existing version of iMovie (and Apple started giving the old version of iMovie away for free as a way to stem the blow back).”
Or they were’t pissed AT ALL. A subclass of those with significant video editing expertise limited EXCLUSIVELY to those with iMovie expertise were pissed.
Everyone else on the planet not.
Exactly like the FCP Legacy issue.
A hurt subset of a subset of a subset. Loud,, angry and unwilling to forgive – no matter what may change later. Join the Hatfields or the McCoys – carry the grudge – nobody else really cares? And so it goes.
[Andrew Kimery] “Adjust any one of those three things and the X launch goes a lot smoother. It wasn’t just one thing, it was the culmination of many things.
“I believe Tim’s contention has always been that making sticking with Legacy “smoother” would have been a MUCH worse call.
In that, I tend to agree with him.
I’m following a 20something young lady who does nice X tutorials in cyberspace. The idea she’d be doing that if her learning curve had been “grok Legacy or Premiere fully before you can get your ideas on the web… kinda makes me smile.
She’s succeeding clearly because she has “enjoyed” editing from day one.
Exactly as the magnetic timeline imagined. Remove friction from between the person with the ideas and being able to competently express them. For her, it’s about video creation for her peers wishing to aggregate YouTube channel subscribers. And it’s some younger person in a Dean Witter office someplace else vlogging to his clients about “sustainable investing.” or something similar. Or not.
We can all conceptualize THAT as taking your job, or see it as perhaps displacing a mailed circular pasteup artists job, or even as creating a job that was never there before.
Who knows.
And so it goes.
New signature under construction and coming soon. Please stand by…
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[Tim Wilson] “Object to anything and everything you want to. Object to Apple pulling it off shelves. But the idea that it was EVER not available, for a single second, is simply not the case.”
When Apple announced the EOL it was not clear that this was going to be true. it was so much more than not clear, it was one of the biggest issues at the time. From our perspective NOW it is clear – but would it have been this way had Apple not done an about face, under pressure from it’s larger and more influential user’s, and re-instituted sales into the retail chain after stating that there would be –
NO
MORE
AUTHORIZED
SALES
OF
FCP7.
EVER.Large companies with multiple seats of FCP7 that were planning on adding many more seats in the near future were freaking out. They did not want grey market under the counter versions – they wanted authorized, legal, warrantied versions – and it was not clear for over a month after the EOL that they would be able to get them.
It was also not at all clear that unsupported FCP Legacy would continue to run on subsequent versions of OSX.
From where we stand now it is clear that those fears were unfounded – but that’s why hindsight is so much better than 20/20.
So yes, it turns out to be the case that Legacy has always been available and it continues to run, year after year, on the latest OSX upgrades. However the furor about this at the time was reasonable, Apple’s initial handling of this issue was deplorable, and because of Apple’s tone deaf PR ineptness the lingering hostility to FCPX was inevitable.
Again I ask, if the X role out was so good why are we still having this discussion five years later when the product has matured to the point where it can hold it’s own against any other NLE out there?
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin\’ attached to nothin\’
\”Deciding the spine is the process of editing\” F. Bieberkopf -
[Herb Sevush] “Again I ask, if the X role out was so good why are we still having this discussion five years later when the product has matured to the point where it can hold it’s own against any other NLE out there?”
I know a guy who’s wife left him 30 years ago – and he still hasn’t gotten over it.
He’s spent the rest of his life pining for her.
He’s a perfectly rational, perfectly attractive guy with all his hair and money in the bank and a steady job (to use a silly trope) and yet he’s let THAT largely define his personal life.
At some point, you shrug and move on – or you don’t. If you don’t and end up on a web forum re-litigating the original hurt multiple years down the road (!).
Isn’t this exactly what the internet was built for?
New signature under construction and coming soon. Please stand by…
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[Bill Davis] “I’d parse that argument as essentially this…”
Your parsing isn’t pleasing …
[Bill Davis] “If you devalue my EXPERTISE, you devalue me.”
This particular thread isn’t about me, my expertise, or my choice of deodorant. It’s about the three main things the NAB demo didn’t prepare anyone for – No compatibility with Legacy, missing features, immediate EOL of Legacy. These are facts, they fueled the anger because (unlike many of the other comments at the time) they were true and eventually Apple acted to address these concerns but they were a little late putting out the fire. Had Apple announced that Legacy sales would continue, even after development had stopped, that future versions of OSX would support Legacy and had they published the “white paper” outlining the timetable for returning missing features to FCPX on the day of the release and not a month later, the outcry would have been substantially less than it was. Legacy users who do not like the X paradigm would still have been upset, but they would have been reassured that they still had a way forward.
[Bill Davis] “If you want to play the traditional games as well as you can, have fun. But if you want to be relevant playing the games that evolve going forward – NOT changing is going to be the larger mistake. I’m more convinced of that today than ever.”
I don’t know what games you are playing Bill but I make video programming for people to watch. My work is not dependent on any particular piece of software or hardware, it is dependent on my understanding of story structure, a form that hasn’t changed much since the Illiad. My last word on this subject comes from Godard who stated that “a story should have a beginning, a middle and an end, but not necessarily in that order.”
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin\’ attached to nothin\’
\”Deciding the spine is the process of editing\” F. Bieberkopf -
[Bill Davis] “I know a guy who’s wife left him 30 years ago – and he still hasn’t gotten over it.
He’s spent the rest of his life pining for her.”
You’ve just described the central thesis of the majority of novels ever written. It’s called the human condition. I’m sure he thinks that everyone who wants him to “move on” has simply never been in love.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin\’ attached to nothin\’
\”Deciding the spine is the process of editing\” F. Bieberkopf -
Bingo Herb!!!
Had Apple handled the migration with even a modicum of dignity and respect for their customers, the same love that users still have for their legacy product would still be bestowed on the entire company and its other products. But, I’d bet Apple lost just as many fanboys and fangirls in one day as they’ve gained in the five years since. (***One need only compare the FCP Forum, both past and present, with this place to see how the level of Apple excitement went from many individuals to just a few – of course that could also be attributed to the relative coolness of the forum leaders on FCP Legacy Forum.)
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
Los AngelesDavid is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.
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