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OT: Hit Film For Mac
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[Simon Ubsdell] “she could never imagine working on anything other than Ae”
true there simon, if I’m honest I’m sort of one of them. not a very highly skilled one, but one. I came in at 4.0 and the excitement of multiple masks per layer.
but the thing is you’re forgetting how incredible this new application is, how tightly focused on mograph and performance, how slick and clean the toolset is, its really an amazing app. I wish you could see simon, how incredible this competitor that integrates so well with AE is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRRKKKUAtoc
https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics
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[Aindreas Gallagher] “but the thing is you’re forgetting how incredible this new application is, how tightly focused on mograph and performance, how slick and clean the toolset is, its really an amazing app. I wish you could see simon, how incredible this competitor that integrates so well with AE is. “
Well, hell, yeah! If it glows like that it’s gotta be good, right?
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com -
exactly.
https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics
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You’re right Simon, it is a tough crowd. Truthfully, I think this is the hardest nut to crack for any software package that’s looking to win over AE users, while luring new designers. They’re not just competing on software features and performance, they’re contending with a VERY energetic and active Adobe user base (designers and developers). Experienced AE operators are used to having boatloads of plugins and scripts that ease and accelerate their work. Intermediate users can easily find really good training for free, and GREAT training materials very cheaply. For potential designers, the visibility of high-end AE work really sort of makes the choice of which mograph tool to learn a no-brainier.
I actually bought a Hitfilm license when it was in its beta stages (back in the FXHome days), because I thought those guys were onto something and I wanted to support their work. I like where they’re going, but if they want to compete with AE, they seriously need to shed their “fan film” vibe and open the application up to third party developers. I also think Motion could be a serious contender to AE… but it would need to be cross platform and have a scripting engine (IMO). 🙂
Lastly, I like what you’re doing with your Motion tutorial site… any plans to do more VFX centric stuff? There’s so much overlap between mograph and VFX now, it almost seems like a necessity to show a blend of the two. 🙂
Shawn
Shawn
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[Walter Soyka] “I don’t think Nuke disrupted the Flame market”
I dunno – I’m sure I heard it disrupted something. There’s a lot of nuke guys doing crazy composites that aren’t happening in flame suites these days.
[Walter Soyka] “As for the size of the Ae market — which one? Ae is a really broad tool, used in a lot of different ways: motion graphics, VFX, compositing, color correction, finishing… “
that, as it were, would be the point. Why can’t you produce a realtime mograph focused AE that mirrors and beats AE at mograph and forget the VFX that’s drifting elsewhere? say to nuke?
game companies for instance get all their high end in game commercials done in nuke off maya with in game models. At least EA does. then some chump say does the other lower type fx stuff in AE and versions in premiere. Now I have no idea who that chump would be, but he definitely did enjoy talking to the crazy skills art director nuke specialist guy running and finishing the entire show in nuke. that dude was really impressive.the idea that AE is playing that much of that kind of game I think is open to question in VFX terms. the fact that you can dial in specific scripts for prime lenses for bokeh on a CG piece in nuke etc.
I just don’t see why you can’t say that AE is primarily a mograph app. forget the 20% 30% 80% stuff. just produce an AE compatible version that does mograph better and real time with more dedicated tools. Do a set of highly focused things extremely well at near realtime.
It’s different to photoshop. Speed, as it were, is of the essence, and AE is improbably slow. There is an argument that a focused mograph realtime implementation of AE could take quite a lot of AE away from AE.
then AE can go off and compete on high level colour correction, high level finishing and VFX where it is doubtless performing so well.
MS word gets away with the bloat because in the end its all about typing sentences and word owns that. You could argue that AE is caught amidships where the disciplines in CC and vfx are drifting away.
All it would really take was one funded effort to answer core mograph fundamentally better at realtime than AE.
and so the perfect fantasy.
https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics
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[Aindreas Gallagher] “I dunno – I’m sure I heard it disrupted something. There’s a lot of nuke guys doing crazy composites that aren’t happening in flame suites these days.”
No doubt, but I think that’s more because the compositing market has grown so enormously. Virtually all the desktop compositing formerly done on Shake has gone to Nuke, plus stacks of new customers. Flame is 20 years old, still kicking, and still premium.
A lot of Nuke prep work supports Flame sessions, but I don’t see that Nuke has made any inroads into the client-attending finishing sessions that Flame is known for. I think this could change with Nuke Studio, but that’s a bit off in the future yet.
[Aindreas Gallagher] “There is an argument that a focused mograph realtime implementation of AE could take quite a lot of AE away from AE… All it would really take was one funded effort to answer core mograph fundamentally better at realtime than AE.”
Who’s got bigger pockets and more loyal customers than Apple?
My original question was only half rhetorical. Aren’t you drawn to Motion? Isn’t that the app you’re describing? If not, where do you think it falls short?
[Aindreas Gallagher] “Why can’t you produce a realtime mograph focused AE that mirrors and beats AE at mograph and forget the VFX that’s drifting elsewhere? say to nuke? … You could argue that AE is caught amidships where the disciplines in CC and vfx are drifting away.”
A lot of the value that Ae adds is the VFXy stuff. You noted LUTs and mask tracking in your original feature list. I’d consider these compositing, closer to VFX than mograph — yet you think they are essential features for mograph. I think that’s because the lines around mograph have become so blurred.
I think that CC/mograph/VFX are all converging in a kind of Venn diagram of visual disciplines, and I expect this trend to continue in the coming years — but maybe that’s just me. Are you seeing something different in your market?
What Ae features would you be willing to lose for better interactivity?
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
[Simon Ubsdell] “Yes, I forgot Mamba FX which odes look really interesting – I had a brief brush with Jaleo way back wen and really disliked it intensely but things do seem to be looking much more promising these days.”
I think that SGO still has a (long) way to go on the UI — but I am one of those biased Ae users!
In fairness, I also think Ae has a lot of room for improvement on the UI and on workflow.
[Simon Ubsdell] “Hmmm, they’re looking to fix it (and they have been forever) but I’m not sure this says they’re about to have delivered on it (other than “hypothetically”):”
Sorry, I didn’t mean to suggest that improved performance was right around the corner.
I’m glad to see with CC that they can finally focus on something that affects existing users every single time they open the app, instead of trying to sell upgrades and new licenses with shiny features like CS6’s ray-tracer. I think that we could have had this big performance improvement some time ago, except that “no big new features, but 80% less slow than before!” doesn’t look very good on the tin.
Simon, I’m curious on your thoughts on HitFilm itself. Have you given it a spin at all?
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
[Shawn Miller] ” I like where they’re going, but if they want to compete with AE, they seriously need to shed their “fan film” vibe and open the application up to third party developers. I also think Motion could be a serious contender to AE… “
sure isn’t the point that there is currently nothing on the field challenging AE as a key mograph application?
No one is going to shift to motion or hitfilm. You are hypothetically looking at a funded new entrant analysing and synthesising, with realtime operation,
core aspects of ae to produce an answer that betters it for key brand design solutions. time and motion study.say an application that clearly, per quantifiable dollar, iterates faster and better brand mograph design problems –
without say, some pointless rotobrush or a buried, ages old, brian maffit ocean generator no one cares about.
you just clear that 20 year old crud away, hug AE close for the customer in design terms, and sleekly answer motion graphics for the now. opening it up to all partners.as long as it’s fit, design targeted and a total revelation, well there you go: surely most designers alive would try it just to see if it’s all that.
they haven’t seen anything in a long time. The type object animation twirl down apparatus in AE is a kafkaesque insanity. honestly. that’s all ridiculous and we’re talking about typographic animation here. adobe are getting away with murder.In design terms, as an initial statement, I’m not sure this effort is predicated on C4D integration.
you just need funding to assemble a skills group to breakdown and beat AE as a mograph application that can play extremely well with AE, PS, nuke, avid and autodesk.you would feel that could be done. far likelier target than PS, with – at least – the guts of a million licenses at play.
and so the perfect fantasy.
https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics
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[Aindreas Gallagher] “[Shawn Miller] ” I like where they’re going, but if they want to compete with AE, they seriously need to shed their “fan film” vibe and open the application up to third party developers. I also think Motion could be a serious contender to AE… ”
sure isn’t the point that there is currently nothing on the field challenging AE as a key mograph application?”
Yup, and I don’t disagree with your sentiments at all. A modern, dedicated mograph tool with a scripting engine, plugin architecture, near RT performance in the $349-$599 price range could potentially sell like hotcakes. Though to be honest, the application you described earlier in the thread should really cost more like $1,000 – $2,000… you would have to pare down the features to get the cost down to $350.00, I think.
As I see it, only Apple, Maxon, Boris and Adobe are interested in building tools for serious motion graphics artists… but I think Adobe and Maxon are a LOT more serious than Apple and Boris are. Maybe there is a small firm out there working on the tool of our dreams. Question is, can such a firm bring something to market at an attractive price point, that’s feature rich AND stable (cheap, good, fast… pick two)? 🙂
Shawn
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[Shawn Miller] “They’re not just competing on software features and performance, they’re contending with a VERY energetic and active Adobe user base (designers and developers). Experienced AE operators are used to having boatloads of plugins and scripts that ease and accelerate their work. Intermediate users can easily find really good training for free, and GREAT training materials very cheaply. For potential designers, the visibility of high-end AE work really sort of makes the choice of which mograph tool to learn a no-brainier. “
Yes, I think these are really key points – no rival product is going to be able to create that kind of supportive ecosystem any time soon. It’s taken decades for Ae to get there.
[Shawn Miller] “I actually bought a Hitfilm license when it was in its beta stages (back in the FXHome days), because I thought those guys were onto something and I wanted to support their work. I like where they’re going, but if they want to compete with AE, they seriously need to shed their “fan film” vibe and open the application up to third party developers.”
I actually think they’ve made a decision to compete in the middle of the market, where the big bucks are potentially going to come from, rather than go for the top-end Ae market. I notice lots of shiny stuff in there that’s designed to sell mass market units. The only thing I looked at particularly closely was the keying which is serviceable but very definitely not top flight and that I think is quite a useful benchmarks for the product as a whole.
[Shawn Miller] “Lastly, I like what you’re doing with your Motion tutorial site… any plans to do more VFX centric stuff? There’s so much overlap between mograph and VFX now, it almost seems like a necessity to show a blend of the two. :-)”
Actually you and Walter are responsible for having got me started on the tutorials following our Motion/Ae discussions last summer.
One of the reasons I haven’t done much in the way of compositing tutorials is not having materials to use other than client material, and not having a funny, fat friend on hand who’s prepared to run around being blown up on camera. Anyone who’s followed Andrew Kramer will know who I’m talking about 😉
The other reasons are more to do with the limitations of Motion – the lack of true 3D, but also the poor quality of the 2D motion tracking, and so on. (I haven’t looked deeply into mObject but that does seem to be starting to offer the kind of 3D object importing that you get with Element 3D.) That makes it hard to do the kind of flashy stuff that most people want to see. But I’ll certainly give it some thought.
The interesting thing about working in Motion is that because you don’t have many of the easy instant tools that come with Ae, you have to build things from scratch and/or create workarounds, so it does actually teach you to be more inventive and resourceful and that’s no bad thing. But the limits are very obvious and I’m not at all sure that Apple will be trying to do anything about that – I think to move it forward, they would really need to bring in a whole new team with a higher end mindset and skill base. Not at all likely …
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com
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