Oh man…!

[Christopher Wright]

I think doka says it best. The HVX-200 is just fine if you need “run and gun,” “autofocus,” “news cam” solutions. Hell, in our market they are still using Hi8 (you can tell by the dropouts!) and miniDV for news stories. The DVCPRO HD format is good enough for the most demanding quality control experts at PBS and the major networks, so use the HVX for that. Spending $50k for anything less than what RED offers is foolish IMHO. I have been in the business long enough, and have seen those $200-100k cameras become doorstops in just a few years. These new Pannys will be no exception. Rent them if you can’t wait for RED. All I know is RED is the only other camera I will ever BUY.
While Ron is correct in the NLE market, the camera market for film work is a totally different animal. A good 35mm film cam and lenses are still as useful today as they were 10 years ago. This is the market for RED.
and BTW Jeremy, I CAN handle 4k content at my studio. You would of course edit in Prores and do final output to 4K if really needed, but the point is, the RED workflow in FCP already exists for RED content.

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Christopher Wright] ” and have seen those $200-100k cameras become doorstops in just a few years.”

The Panny is less than half of your least expensive listing and what cameras do you speak of?

Jeremy

[Ron Lindeboom]

[Christopher Wright] “While Ron is correct in the NLE market, the camera market for film work is a totally different animal. A good 35mm film cam and lenses are still as useful today as they were 10 years ago.”

While I blush that I am right for once, I am surprised that anyone would purport that RED is going to decimate the field. There is a phase-in period, there is a ramp-up manufacturing period, there are workflow issues (more than just saying that they can work with FCP today) such as the realities of working in the 4K environment, and a ton of other issues to be addressed, resolved, made peace with and much more.

The point is, there are no easy answers and if there were, companies like Sony (especially, as a mega-giant), Panasonic (as a giant) and Thomson (as another giant), et al, would have left no room for anyone else. But to say that it’s clear that RED will leave all $200K-and-under camera users out in the cold is too bold a proclamation, in my opinion.

In the hands of an artist, a good hammer makes a cathedral. In the hands of a hack, it makes an out-house. Never forget that in the end, it’s the story, the image and the artist combining the two that holds more sway than just the hardware alone.

Lastly, do you honestly believe that lens manufacturing giants like Canon, Fujinon, etc., are going to sit back and not take on RED and throw their muscle behind the companies that have been their bread and butter for many years?

I admire the small team at RED and their creativity. But there are a lot more minds combined in the “old guard” and I highly doubt that they are going to sit there while someone moves into their financial office and wants to write checks off their account. You seem to think that these people are oblivious to what is happening and the forces that are at play.

But in the end, RED will have to contend with the fact that they can only make just so many cameras, as their manufacturing is quite small. (Yes, they can grow but their founder is not stupid and I will guarantee that he knows that uncontrolled growth is more dangerous and often more fatal than under-capitalization.)

I expect to see RED carve out a respected place in the market but total nuclear annihilation, hardly.

It took a comet to kill off the dinosaurs; atom bombs would not have been big enough to do the job.

At least those are just some of the factors that I see affecting the market in the days ahead.

Lastly, if you care to keep going on and on about RED, take it to the RED forum or, as the admin, I will move it there.

Respectfully,

Ron Lindeboom

[Randall Raymond]

‘The Theatre is Dead’ was a great bugaboo when I started college in ’65 as a Drama (read – ‘theatre’) major. The fact is, it’s pretty much proved out. It’s live, it’s quaint, and the largest audience is, without a doubt, springtime high school play audiences. (I’ve been to New York City plays where there were 100 of us in the audience wondering, ‘Will they make a movie of this…’) They didn’t.

4K cameras are for optimists. Deliver to disks, get your story out. Stop stressing about the BIG screen, when your audience is watching it on a 50″ Plasma. That IS the big screen from now on.

‘The Movie Theatre is Dead’ Given the clarity of HD, is there anyone who wants to argue that.

So, is 4k the wave of the future when the future is upon us?

[Christopher Wright]

It seems we have moved into the Panny (and Sony realm), especially with your last post. So let’s continue. Since you are using dinosaur metaphors, let me expand the comparison. Sony and Panasonic are the heavy hitting corporate entities that will stick to an old paradigm longer than they should, just as the U.S. car manufacturers did. When they start losing ground on market share and sales, then they will decide to re-examine their corporate strategy. They both tried to maintain the hallowed “3 tiers of product class” consumer, industrial, and professional, until the Sony VX-1000 came along and completely erased the more expensive Industrial product line and base. The HVX-200 with DVCPROHD has done a lot to erase the line between consumer and professional, along with starting the rapid demise of tape-based production. There were very limited runs of the Prius hybrid when they first came out as well. I know, as I paid a deposit on an unknown product (I didn’t even have a guaranteed color selection, just a stated color preference!), waited a year, and finally received a car that wasn’t even on the U.S. manufacturers radar. They are suffering very badly right now, and Toyota is growing by leaps and bounds every day. It pays to be the revolutionary. The lens manufacturers just want to sell lenses, they don’t care to what camera or manufacturer. The ones I talked to at NAB were already working on solutions. I’m sure they will clamor to be outfit with “the other camera.” There will also be new lens manufacturers that will jump to the task as well. I have always supported and embraced change. I bought one of the first “Video Toasters” on the Amiga Platform. I bought the VX-1000 versus a Betacam. I bought Discreet Logic’s Edit* instead of an Avid. I bought the HVX-200 over the highly compressed HDV units. “The other camera” is this type of paradigm shift, like it or not. And yes, you can make art with a pinhole camera or a sketchbook, but give a great artist an even greater tool to work with and watch out!

[Jan Crittenden livingston]

Hi guys,

Let’s pull this thread back to what started it the AJ-HPX3000 cacorder. Frankly I have never seen such a gorgeous luscious picture delivered in 100 Mbs in my life! It looks like HDD5. The guys did this showgirl with feathers doing a dance against a green screen, ubelievable. I asked them to limit this part of the demo real because the guys looking at it were no longer looking at camera quality, if you know what I mean. Then the footage goes to a restaurnt scene and there was easily 3 stops of light under the table to play with.

I believe this camera will be at the Abel CineTech,Los Angeles, P2 HD Clinic next week for those that want to get a looksee on the product. And the footage I mentioned should be there as well. It will probably be at the Birns and Sawyer event the following week as well.

Best,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems

[Ron Lindeboom]

Christopher,

I asked you to take this to the RED forum if you wished to continue. Now I will tell you: Take it to the RED forum or I will throw your account onto moderation if you care to persist in this.

Why come into the Panasonic forum and act like a fanboy to a bunch of people that really don’t want to hear it?

In netspeak, that is called being a troll.

This is your last warning.

Ron Lindeboom

[Barry Green]

[Ron Lindeboom] “companies like Sony (especially, as a mega-giant), Panasonic (as a giant)”

That’s the traditional perception, but the curious thing is, if you check the financials, Panasonic is actually quite a bit bigger (by revenues and employees) than Sony is…

Sony had revenues of $54 billion for 2006, Panasonic’s revenues were $76 billion — over 40% higher. You can’t just directly compare them, of course, because a large portion of Sony’s sales come from their movie studio and videogame businesses, to which Panasonic has no comparable line. But Panasonic has a line of home products that Sony doesn’t, either, so a direct comparison of broadcast or electronics isn’t so easy.

Panasonic also has twice as many employees (332,000 vs. 163,000 for Sony). By market capitalization, Sony’s still bigger; Sony is valued at $47 billion, Panasonic at $37 billion. But by any other measure, Panasonic is actually the bigger company.

By comparison, Thomson is about 1/10th the size of the two Japanese conglomerates. But Philips is about the same size as Sony and Panasonic.

[Randall Raymond]

[Jan Crittenden Livingston] “Let’s pull this thread back to what started it the AJ-HPX3000 cacorder. Frankly I have never seen such a gorgeous luscious picture delivered in 100 Mbs in my life! It looks like HDD5. The guys did this showgirl with feathers doing a dance against a green screen, ubelievable. I asked them to limit this part of the demo real because the guys looking at it were no longer looking at camera quality, if you know what I mean. Then the footage goes to a restaurnt scene and there was easily 3 stops of light under the table to play with.”

It’s the one camera I want. Were they using a video lens or a film lens w/adapter?

[John Cummings]

Frankly I have never seen such a gorgeous luscious picture delivered in 100 Mbs in my life! It looks like HDD5.

Not after my cable company gets ahold of it…