Offline Online workflow for HDCAM

[David Roth weiss]

Keep it simple… Use any codec (ProRes, DVCProHD, whatever) that allows you to work at the same aspect ratio and framerate as your original. Downconversion to DV is therefore not a great workflow in my opinion.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Post-production Supervisor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

[Mark Raudonis]

[Editguy69] “we are very comfortable working with the DNXHD codecs in Avid and are kind of being forced into FCP land against our will”

Boo hoo hooo!

Relax “guy”, it will all be just fine. We’ve been using the classic off-line to on-line approach for over three years now on hundreds of hours of network shows. The workflow is very similar, but the tools are much different.

If you’re starting in HD, you have several choices for your off-line format depending on how much storage you can afford. We have chosen to use Apple’s “Off-line RT” format which is comparable to Avid’s 30-1 resolution… in other words, it looks like crap. On the other hand, it has extremely low bandwidth and since we’re networking almost a hundred edit systems, bandwidth starts to enter into the equation. We also have thousands of hours of original footage, so even at that data rate, storage is an issue (50 terrabytes and counting). Our situation is unique and most people just won’t touch Off-line RT. Plain old DV is a better choice. In your case, that’s what I’d recommend.

As for final output, Pro Res hasn’t been out very long, so there’s not a whole lot of feedback about it. Just know that you’re going to need some specific hardware to make it work. As for render times, you need to plan on it. Do a test and see what you’re up against.

Finally, if all your prior experience is with an Avid workflow, give yourself enough time to learn, test, and be comfortable with the pecularities of FCP. It’s not the same, and your Avid centric expectations are only going to cause frustration and anger on your part.

Good luck.

mark

[Chris Coote]

Does this mean we need to offline at 1080i – 59.94? That doesn’t seem right.
In the Avid we just offline at anamorphic DV 29.97 then change the format to 1080i 59.94 and recapture.
Does FCP have a hard time converting a 29.97 sequence to 59.94 when it’s time for the redigitize? What codec would you suggest for offine in order to keep the file sizes down? There is going to be a lot of footage to be captured. We need a seamless transition from offline to online.
Forgive my ignorance, we’re still early in the process of learning about FCP.

[Chris Coote]

OK, good to know some other people out there are in a similar boat regarding large amounts of media and having to recapture.
Plain old DV would be our preference since it provides a decent picture with reasonable file sizes. I’m still a little unclear as to whether it’s an issue going from a 720×480 – 29.97 sequence to a 1920-1080 – 59.94 sequence.

When you talk about specific hardware to make it work are you referring to the IO card (blackmagic) or something else?

In your situation are you recapturing in HD or SD? If HD, which codec?

I am trying to avoid the anger and frustration…that’s why I’m here
trying to do my homework. Unfortunately allowing lots of time to test might be out of our control.

[Mark Raudonis]

Guy,

DRW may feel otherwise, but I think DV WOULD be a good choice. In my opinion, the frame rate thing is NOT an issue. Aspect ratio IS an issue. When doing the transfer, you have two choices, letterbox or anamorphic squeeze. Either one will cause some issues with GRFX positioning so that your on-line grfx are NOT just an automatic uprez. You’re going to have to do some tweeking on position, size etc. If it’s not a grfx heavy show, then no problem. If it IS grfx heavy you have to consider something that is 16 X 9 native, like DVC ProHD or pro res as your “off-line” codec. Yes, the hardware I was referring to was the AJA box and apparently, at least a very late model G5.

Right now, we’re SD, but we’ve done both. HD at the time was HDCAM. Today, I’d use either DVCPRO HD (Which is very FCP friendly) or apple Pro res, but I haven’t worked with Pro Res yet, so I can’t vouch for it.

Build in the time in the “up res” process to check your up rez against a QT of the off-line cut. Digitize with one second handles for potential slippage. We have so many different decks, sources etc. that it’s easier for us to hand fix our masters than to try to trouble shoot hundreds of deck/computer combinations.

Good luck.

mark

[David Roth weiss]

I’m a big fan of the same aspect ratio, same frame rate because:

1. Lots of folks are creating giant headaches shooting at 23.98 and offlining at 29.97. You don’t have that problem.

2. I intensely dislike rejiggering graphics.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Post-production Supervisor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

[David Roth weiss]

[mark raudonis] “the frame rate thing is NOT an issue. Aspect ratio IS an issue.”

Precisely!!!

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Post-production Supervisor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

[David Roth weiss]

[mark raudonis] “Either one will cause some issues with GRFX positioning so that your on-line grfx are NOT just an automatic uprez. You’re going to have to do some tweeking on position, size etc.”

Mark,

My philosophy has always been “no job is worth doing twice.” All the advice I dish out here is an attempt to help others avoid that second go around.

David

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Post-production Supervisor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

[Chris Coote]

Thanks for the responses.
I don’t think any graphics are being done at the offline stage
so the aspect ratio shouldn’t be a problem. I know DVCPROHD works well with FCP but they want to shoot HDCAM (the broadcaster doesn’t accept DVCPRO HD, at least not for acquisition.) So I guess that leaves uncompressed HD or Pro-res for online. How do the various hardware options compare when it comes to playing back HD without dropping frames or other problems. The AJA HD box looks very interesting but I don’t think it’s shipping yet and we wouldn’t want to put anything that new into production right away. We haven’t bought anything yet so we don’t necessarily have to go the blackmagic route. Anyone out there pumping out shows regularily in HD (not DVCPROHD)?

[David Roth weiss]

[Editguy69] “I know DVCPROHD works well with FCP but they want to shoot HDCAM (the broadcaster doesn’t accept DVCPRO HD, at least not for acquisition.) So I guess that leaves uncompressed HD or Pro-res for online.”

Not necessarily! There are many on this forum who use a workflow in which HDCAM is captured as DVCProHD, edited as DVCProHD, and then output back to HDCAM. Its a very common workflow that yields excellent results without the vast hard drive space or throughput required by HDCAM.

With regard to capture cards, both BM and AJA make great stuff. AJA’s Kona cards are very popular among folks here on this forum (myself included) because of their excellent tech support, which is based right here in the good old US o A. Dropping frames is more a factor of the throughput of your hard drive subsystem (i.e. raid aray) than of the video capture cards.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Post-production Supervisor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles