NLE Unreliability

[David Grantham]

Thanks, David, but I don’t see that:

The specs for running the versions of this software with this hardware are vetted with the m’fr – not as minimum but as well above required for the initial installation, and recommended for the upgrade. It’s only being asked to do what is was specified to do.

So I believe it’s all matching specs. (But as you point out it’s not current now – I wasn’t going to spend more on the same system when it never worked properly in the first place.)

[Walter Biscardi]

[david grantham] “I am a tier down (at least) from you men in terms of professional production output – and I believe I was the target market for this product. I hope this doesn’t make this post a waste of your time.
“

I opened my company in a spare bedroom. Not exactly top tier. But I did start out with a full broadcast capable Final Cut Pro editing system assembled by ProMax.

[david grantham] “The computer was assembled by a vendor who is not an expert in NLEs to specs they received from the manufacturer, and yes, from what I can tell it was a matter of choosing which card and which mortherboard were advertised as tested for the gear.”

What is this, some ad-hoc put together by number system? That’s horrendous. Putting together a stable NLE is much more than the correct motherboard and card. It’s OS version, Storage Card, Storage system, Software Version number matching up to everything else that is installed among others.

[david grantham] ” I thought it was just to be expected (I’d heard NLEs crash a lot),”

Not when they are properly configured for the task at hand. If they did, most of us would be out of business.

[david grantham] “When I began having the cooling system upgraded, and installing software upgrades – for which it was advertised to be upgradable – proved problematic on the system, it became necessary to interact with technical support, and I learned that the recommended slot was now one at the other end of the board. (One wonders about the throughness of the initial testing and recommendation.) It was also then that I learned now many other other programmes should not be installed (let alone concurrently run) on the NLE system.”

Sounds like you had the wrong machine all along. And yes, there are software applications that can conflict with NLE’s. That’s true of any NLE editing system out there. It depends on that that application changes to your setup and if it is trying to do any background tasks while you’re editing. They can wreak havoc on any NLE if you install the wrong software.

As for the thoroughness of testing, things change all the time on systems. As the OS, machines and drivers change, card placement recommendations change too. This is normal.

Just to be clear, you’re a professional editor earning money with this system and you did not feel the need to hire someone who sets up professional editing systems. Now said editing system is not performing as you are expecting, but you want the software manufacturer to give you some sort of refund or monetary payment for your suffering?

I’m sorry, but none of your argument flies for me. From what I can tell you did not set yourself up properly from the get go with a proper professional editing system. The manufacturer owes you nothing.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

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[Timothy J. allen]

We ran into a similar situation a few years ago. Actually, the guys who worked for the “up and coming” NLE were brilliant, and patient, and to their credit, they tried for a few months to help us configure the systems. We had proficient and experienced (even talented) engineers on staff who were dedicated to troubleshooting the things.

After weeks stretched into months – and then longer – as we waited for software and hardware upgrades that would “fix everything”, we finally had to admit that as much as we all wanted the NLEs to work.

Long story short, we finally bit the bullet and bought an edit system that had been proven by thousands of users, one that had a widespread and deep user base, and one that offered an expensive, yet expansive tech support contract. The next year, we bought several more systems and the “up and coming” NLEs finally started their new task of keeping the dust in the storage rooms from falling all the way to the floor. (They do a great job of that.)

I’m not saying we still didn’t have problems with the so called “big brand”. But at least we knew there was a network of support around the world… and I got back a level of confidence in projecting project completion dates.

There’s no shame in going with a proven system.

[Tim Kolb]

So David…

The issue is not clear in this system…

You have the following:

1. A computer you bought somewhere
2. Your for-some-reason-unmentioned software (which is all over your other posts here on the Cow)
3. A third party boardset running underneath it which accelerates the process through a proprietary codec and hardware.

Which manufacturer is at fault? Most of the time it’s nearly impossible to determine…and ‘fault’ may be nowhere to be found.

The computer manufacturer made a computer…you made sure it had the right processor and RAM, but a well-running configuration takes a motherboard that has known components that don’t interfere with the app you plan on running. Macintosh is a different story as the same company makes the computer and the NLE software so even though once in a while, you could still have an issue, for the most part it’s sort of difficult to create a Mac/FCP combo that’s incompatible if you stick to the configuration recommended.

PCs are different. It’s a little bit like building a hot rod in the back yard…sure you could put a 455 V8 in a Chevy Vega after you add the front suspension from a half-ton pickup…of course, the first time you hit the gas, you’ll be picking up smoldering particles of disintegrating rear differential…

Check the RAM…is the RAM defective? Inexplicable problems can often be caused by partially malfunctioning RAM.

My VAR simply changes it out if it’s determined to be defective within the warranty period. Maybe there’s a component in the system that isn’t compatible with either the software, or the boardset…perhaps it’s not compatible with piece of software that has nothing to do with video editing and the problems you’re experiencing and the issues you’re experiencing are secondary to a secondary issue…

I know that Jeff Pulera has answered several of your messages here on the Cow in the past. His company, Safe Harbor Computers, configures Matrox/Adobe systems, I suspect he’d have some ideas, though unless the components are up-to-date, it can be difficult to troubleshoot.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

[David Grantham]

“Putting together a stable NLE is much more than the correct motherboard and card. It’s OS version, Storage Card, Storage system, Software Version number matching up to everything else that is installed among others.”

Of course. Those were early discoveries for me. I believe these are among the facts a manufacturer is obligated to tell users at the outset and – it certinaly appears – recommend a qualified NLE specialist be attached to the system throughout its life for regular upgrades and maintenance.

This is what I am hearing here and I thank the assembled for it. (I’ve pretty much come to that conclusion on my own anyway) However, that’s not the whole story.

Walter, it sounds like you are conetnet with low expectations of those developing this technology in terms of advising their user base on how to keep it working – or at the very least whom to consult to do so.

I welcome the helpful advice here, but I strongly feel that I should not have to come limping bruised into a forum for that advice after I have been dealing with the manufacturer directly on a weekly and sometimes daily basis for months stretching to years. If they say “plug in the card, install the software thusly, and away you go…” – as they did – I believe it should be that way. If they say “this wil fix the problem” as they repeatedly have, it should do so. If they say it can be made to work under such-and-such circumstances, at some point it shoudl be made to work if those circumstances are met.

What I appear to be hearing here – and its a bit startling – is not to rely on a system manufacturer for support and advice on how to maintain their own gear. If that’s the case, we should decalre that as shortcoming in the indsutry and the unreliability of their advice should be taken to task and I believe they should undertake accountability for it.

Caveat emptor has a ring, but I don’t think it excuses a supplier from rewarding the trust of its client by delivering on promises.

A Rolls Royce can only be serviced at a Rolls Dealership, from what I understand. If this is true for any other vehicle, it should be stated in the promotional material. It should be the same for any other type of equipment.

Besides, the system complies with all that you mentioned and it still doesn’t work. If that points to problems extraneous to the NLE-specific system, that itself should have been possible to identify early on from some route the manufacturer recommended.

I’m not ready to accept that a supplier is not obligated to provide knowledge to the user about how – or at the very least through what source – to maintain the effectiveness of equipment.

[David Grantham]

All components including RAM were checked when the manufacturer and vendor reinstalled everything in November. New Hard Drives were installed.

[David Grantham]

Thanks for your comments.

The system I chose was recommended to me by a friend who edits national television dramas. It isn’t at the bottom of the heap, I think it’s in the middle and it does appear to have both supporters and detractors.

[Tim Kolb]

OK…the computer components work properly…has Matrox had any thoughts on the physical configuration of the machine itself when they see all the specs?

…also what other software is in the machine? (include everything in this analysis)

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

[David Grantham]

Thanks Tim. That information is all up in the part of this site where it fits and I continue to troubleshoot there. It would be kind of you if we could pursue that there.

I don’t want to link to that here in the business post area. I dont want to directly impugn a mfr who is an advertising patron on this helpful site if it can be avoided. We can fly at a higher altitue than that here and I’m thinking we can probably have a freer conversation if we do.

This is about where we go and what we do in the wake of what appears to be irredeemable failure of systems and support. Suffice it to say the system has been recently stripped down and always configured directly to mf’r standards, under direct supervision of the manufacturer to only the (optimal version of the) OS and other software that’s required to make it work. Nothing else. And its perfromance hasn’t substantially improved.

Its interesting to note in the next post that Tim appears to have simply eaten the cost and retired his under-delivering gear. Others appear to accept that mnf’rs do not at moment of purchase recommend specialists be engaged to maintain the gear (as if this is something only for inner circles to know. )

This acceptance doesn’t seem to be right in the long run for any of us. If we can win accoutablity and insist on deliverable quality, certifable advice from manufacturers about how to maintain gear, and absolute accountability for failures, let’s. We’ll have better gear for it. It may be the only good that can come from my current disaster.

When we push back let’s be absolutely certain we have just reason. I don’t want to name a brand while I’m still extending them every oportunity to be accountable for their product.

[Paul Thurston]

Things to look for:
1) The motherboard (has a bottle neck that cannot be fixed)
2) The hardrive array (it’s not giving you at least 200MB/s)
3) The hardrive is connected to a controller that is defective by design (meaning the motherboard manufacturer used a chip in the controller that consistently fails under particular conditions, Non-linear editing is one of them.)
4) After all was installed correctly, the wrong Quicktime was installed or was upgraded (with or without your knowledge…)
5) Your RAM is incorrectly installed in your motherboard. Certain motherboards are designed to only have RAM sticks installed in ONLY slots 1,3,5, and 7. Other motherboards are designed to only have a certain maximum amount of RAM installed in a particular slot and your particular stick of RAM may have surpassed that amount.
6) Your ATi Radeon X1650 Video Card wants the same resources your Matrox hardware wants. (How this could possibly happen is a mystery, but a different motherboard model may fix this.)
7) Your power supply is to small (the wattage it supplies is less than what the hardware requires.) Or your power supply is wired incorrectly into the peripherals (modern power supplies have four or more circuits, and if you overpower one of those circuits, the power supply becomes too small for the wattage required.)
8) Your hard drives are SATA drives, they are past 50% full, and so their reduced speed causes the hardware to fail (a RAID 0 or RAID 6 may help… make sure you’re getting at least 200 MB/s)
9) You are using PP 1.5. The newer QuickTime Codecs & Drivers for certain devices are for more up to date editing systems (Premier Pro CS4) Premier Pro 1.5 was designed for what was available in 2003.
10) You have a worm or virus that keeps returning to your system. USB drives are usually the ones that make this happen.
11) The processors installed came from a bad batch (happens more often than what people think… from what you explain in your symptoms, I think this is the most likely cause of your ills.)

Hope this helps

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Paul Thurston
Producer
Chile