New P2 cams? (w. 1/2″ or 2/3″ image sensors?)

[Noah Kadner]

Peter-

I would purely speculating here but I’d imagine an SDX900 type of camera with the HVX’s specs + interchangeable lenses and beefier CCDs could be plausible at some point in the future. There could be a middle ground between the HVX and the Varicam. The lines are really getting blurred now though aren’t they? 🙂

Highly doubt it in the next year though. I’d vote go with the HVX and then you can always sell. The HVX will be in high demand for quite a few years with the amount of features it’s got. If there’s such a thing as future proof in the video world- I’d say it’s this cam.

Noah

[Jan Crittenden livingston]

Hi Peter,

NAB.

Sorry,

Jan

Jan M. Crittenden
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems

[Deleted User]

[Jan Crittenden] “NAB.”

Thanks, Jan; I understand.

No worries: Just a coupl’a more weeks ’till NAB! 😉

All the best,

– Peter

[Graeme Nattress]

Indeed, I think we can all invisage such a product. Bigger chips, better glass, direct to P2, perhaps like the HDX200 with all the funky modes. Sounds like yet another killer product.

Graeme

– http://www.nattress.com – Film Effects for FCP

[Deleted User]

[Noah Kadner] “… I’d vote go with the HVX and then you can always sell. …”

I hear you, Noah, and it’s tempting, but the difficult decision I’ve been slouching toward over the past several months is what to buy based on specific requests from my most frequent clients (primarily corporate productions).

So although I think the new HVX200 will probably be a very useful cam for many pro applications, it probably won’t meet my requirements — unfortunately!

Based on my clients’ requirements, I need to get a standard definition camera system which is much, much better than what I currently own. As a result, the price range will probably be somewhere between $15K -$20K USD or so including at least a “basic” removeable lens. My clients have no current need for HD in any form, and don’t anticipate much need for it for at least a year or more.

Although I’m able to use my Sony DSR-250 camcorder for many of my clients’ jobs, with increasing frequency its capabilities fall short of what my clients require. As you may know, the DSR-250 is essentially a PD-150 in a fullsize shoulder-mount cam housing. The 250 is functionally identical to the 150 in almost every aspect: Three (not very hi-res) 1/3″ CCDs, DV & DVCAM, same non-removeable and not very sharp lens, no genlock or timecode I/O, and so forth. However, the extra cost of the 250 vs. the 150 was easy justifiable; my clients want a cam that “looks” impressive. It’s a bit silly, but it’s true, and the 250 paid for itself in a few months!

I would consider a camcorder which includes P2, but it also has to do the following:

– My clients will require “narrower” depth of field compared to what is practical with 1/3″ image sensors and lenses in the physical spaces (fairly small rooms) my clients typically shoot in. This means I’m probably going to have to buy a 2/3″ imager type cam instead of a 1/3″ or 1/2″. And buying or renting a mini35 adapter is completely out of the range of their typical project budgets. Unfortunately, the new “under $10K” HVX200 almost certainly isn’t a 2/3″ type cam, so that puts it out of the running in this regard.

– My clients will require a much “sharper” and “cleaner” image than what a typical PD-150 / PD-170 / DSR-250 cam can deliver. When I say sharper, I mean naturally sharp, not artificially enhanced. A better codec and higher datarate than DV25 certainly addresses this, so the HVX200’s DVCPRO-50 and PVCPRO-HD-100 would be great to have! And although the HVX200’s built-in lens might be sharp (we’ll see soon enough), my clients require the versatility of removeable lenses, including very sharp pro or broadcast lenses which can be bought or rented as needed.

– My clients will require “DV25″ videocassettes delivered immediately after shooting stops, not many minutes or hours later by making a dub from some other format. Further, there’ll be some resistance on my clients part toward any non-Sony variant of DV. They never use DVCPRO, and sometimes they specifically require DVCAM. I understand this requirement isn’t entirely rational, but there it is. Sure, most pro DV decks can play DVCPRO tapes, but my clients will resist accepting it. I can think of several ways to finagle handling recording to DV tape concurrent with shooting, but either an in-camera tape transport or an external tape transport with rec/pause interlock would be the most practical solution. So, a HVX200 _might_ be able to handle this requirement, but this aspect of the cam’s specs hasn’t been confirmed/denied yet. Stay tuned. 😉

– My clients will require genlock and timecode I/O capability. Again, a HVX200 _might_ be able to do this, but this hasn’t been confirmed/denied yet. Of course, this capability is fairly common on fullsize 2/3″ cams.

– My clients will require 24p in addition to 60i. Unfortunately for me, few 2/3″ cams feature 24p, and the ones announced as of today may be out of my price range (e.g.: the new Sony DSR-450WS). Of course, the HDV200 has 24p and way more, but alas it’s not enough (see above) to resolve my dilemma.

– My clients will require native 16:9 and 4:3 aspect ratio recording. Again, few 2/3” cam feature this and 24p capability near my price range.

– Although my clients don’t require it, I’m loath to buy another cam which doesn’t have analog component or SDI outputs built-in or available as an option. As an “old” video guy, high quality analog component or SDI outputs give me a warm & fuzzy feeling.

– My clients will require high quality standard definition, but it would be nice to have some capability to occasionally generate semi-decent-looking “HD like” footage. Perhaps Graeme Nattress’ future upconvert software will come to my rescue! 😉 Alternatively, I may buy something like a HDX200 at a later date (in addition to my new, more expensive SD cam) just to have this capability when needed. However, this “HD like” (or is it “HD lite”?) capability is really more for my personal use than anything my clients want.

Of course, many of the things I’ve listed above really describe a very different form-factor camera compared to what we know about the DVX200.

Of the 16:9-capable, non-DVCPRO tape camcorders anywhere near my budget, the new Sony DSR-450WS is one possibility, and it does 24p, but it may not offer an option for component or SDI out. The Ikegami HL-DV7AW DVCAM model is another possibility, but it doesn’t do 24p (it does however offer a component out option) and it’s DVCAM only (not DV). The DSR-570WS has analog outputs built-in, but doesn’t do 24p.

The idea of spending $10K – $20K today on _any_ SD camera is maddening (and a DV25 one, at that!), given the HD wave that’s building offshore, but my current business should pay for it within a year or two. Knock on wood. 😉

Needless to say, I’m looking forward to NAB. I won’t be there this year, but I’ll be watching “the wires”, checkbook in hand.

All the best,

– Peter

[Graeme Nattress]

It doesn’t sound like there’s a camera that meets all those needs. For standard def there’s the SDX900, but that doesn’t do plain DV, and on the Sony side, a decent DigiBeta would meet the quality requirements, but not get you DV25. Do Sony even do an even vaguely affordable camera with 24p??

What I’m liking about the HDX200 is that it does DVCpro50, which is an awesome quality codec for SD use, and along with, hopefully a very good 1080p24, that should really help give the camera the ultimate in picture flexibility.

Graeme

– http://www.nattress.com – Film Effects for FCP

[Paul Mogg]

Hi Folks,
As I posted on the HDV forum, this looks like a very exciting little camera. I so much prefer the DVCPRO HD codec to HDV MPEG. But am I reading the preliminary specs correctly that it will record 1080 24p and 720 60p?? I didn’t think DVCPRO HD currently supported 1080 24p. Also, if it does support 720 60p, does this mean we’ll be able to get the lovely slow motion you can get with the Varicam by using the FRC plugin in FCP?

I’m sure the response will be “wait till NAB”, but I just had to ask the question!

Thanks,

Paul

[Deleted User]

[Graeme Nattress] “… What I’m liking about the HDX200 is that it does DVCpro50, which is an awesome quality codec for SD use, and along with, hopefully a very good 1080p24, that should really help give the camera the ultimate in picture flexibility. …”

I’m with you on the DVCPRO-50 (& 100, too) codecs and the 1080p24 is all good, but the less-than-2/3″ image sensors & corresponding lens, and DVCPRO-25 only format are probably deal killers for my situation.

[Graeme Nattress] “… Do Sony even do an even vaguely affordable camera with 24p?? …”

To the best of my knowledge the least expensive Sony cameras which have been publicly announced and which output 24p (actually 24PsF) are:

– The current model 1/2″-type HDC-X300 high def POV camera head (no tape transport) @ $19K USD street price (G&G) with a Sony standard 1/2″ “HD” lens.

– The “shipping this Spring” 2/3″-type DSR-450WS DVCAM camcorder @ $18K USD suggested list price _without_ a lens or component outputs (although it does include a hi-res B&W viewfinder & color LCD).

I’m pretty sure the 2 above are the least expensive Sony cams with true 24p.

There might also be some little under-$1,500 handycam which does fake 24p, but obviously that won’t suit my clients’ needs. 😉

At this point my leading candidates for “best matches” are:

– The 2/3″-type Ikegami HL-DV7AW DVCAM camcorder @ a street price (B&H) of $11,000 without a viewfinder or lens, but including three 16:9 2/3″ CCDs and at least has an option for SDI or analog component outputs, but is DVCAM only and no 24p.

– Or, a 2/3″-type Sony DSR-570WS DVCAM camcorder @ a street price (B&H) of $14,500 with VF but no lens, but including three 16:9 CCDs and built-in analog component outputs, but is DVCAM only and no 24p. One “fun” aspect of the DSR-570WS is that availability of brand-new units will rapidly dwindle once the newer-but-not-really-equivalent DSR-450WS model arrives.

– Or, if I can afford it, and can live without SDI or component outputs (which I hate to do!), the new DSR-450WS described above.

Of course, if Panasonic comes out with a new 2/3″ 16:9 24p model which can at least record in plain “DV25” mode and meets most of my other requirements, then that might be real contender.

A “baby” version variation of either the Panasonic AJ-SPX800 or AJ-SDX900 would sound about right!

Either that or get “different” clients; that should be easy. >cough< Just a few more weeks, a few more weeks ... All the best, - Peter

[Noah Kadner]

Yes to both- 24p is created on 1080 similar to how 24p is created in 480 on the DVX. And you also get 60p in 720p so- full slow mo if cut with 24p footage.

Noah

[Paul Mogg]

Wow! What can I say, that will be a pretty amazing little camera, and incredible that you’ll be able to do true “overcranked” style slo-mo, I love that with the Varicam. How will this camera create 1080/ 24p? Is each CCD 1280*720 and then it’s uprezzed or something? Sorry I’m not familiar with the way the DVX100 works.

Paul