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New Macbook – Deliberately hobbled?
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All very good points, Ben. You caught me in a major case of jet leg so I am up extremely early, and extremely bored at the moment.
[Ben Holmes] “As I said before, Apple could put these drives in machines to order, and cover the per-machine licence costs in the extra charges. Whether or not they chose to develop a proper authoring solution is a completely separate issue, surely? “
And that is my point. As of right now, Apple cannot do BluRay in way that makes sense and that is ‘Mac like’, otherwise they would. As of right now, it’s a bit too complex for the consumer and it sounds like it’s pretty complex for professional application builders as well. I think that BluRay is still too new to simplify.
[Ben Holmes] “I don’t think it’s any stretch to say that Blu-Ray players (and playback) do not appeal to Apple because it would be in direct competition to the iTMS”
Perhaps, perhaps, but if this were the case, they wouldn’t put DVD drives in their computers either as DVDs still outsell BluRays by far. I just don’t believe that putting a BluRay burner in their computers would help or hurt iTunes sales, or the number would be so low due to the amount of new computers they would sell if BLuRay came standard and a user could author BluRay on the Mac that the number would be offset. To me, it’s just two separate revenue streams that don’t really converge. I could be wrong though.
So if you need firewire on a MacBook, it sounds like they just made it cheaper for you. And seriously, the Macbook shouldn’t be used as an editor anyway (in my opinion). You can get the new 15″ macbook Pro for $600 or $800 more and have a computer that really works instead of one that limps along. In the Pro market, I would call this the cost of doing business and also a smart thing to do if your business depends on owning the right tools to get the job done.
On a side note, if you want to see how bad the glossy screen reflection is, check out the keynote and watch the last video that starts a few minutes before the end of the entire presentation. Those glossy screens are rubbish.
https://stream.qtv.apple.com/events/oct/0810rtdws876/m_08100053744wuasd_1200_ref.mov
What is extremely cool is the direct access to the hard drive. No more taking apart the whole case to upgrade to a larger hard drive.
Jeremy
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[Ben Holmes] “Oh – something else in my RSS filters today: “
Nice one. Now, if you had a Bluray movie, could you play it?
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[Jeremy Garchow] “As of right now, Apple cannot do BluRay in way that makes sense and that is ‘Mac like’, otherwise they would. As of right now, it’s a bit too complex for the consumer and it sounds like it’s pretty complex for professional application builders as well. I think that BluRay is still too new to simplify. “
Agreed – I think this makes a lot of sense – apart from the last part about it being too new – it’s just not that new a format, it’s so old in IT terms it’s about to be superseded by iTMS downloads (hopes Apple). It’s definitely a programming mess – ask Adobe. Still – this is the best argument right now for Apple’s reluctance to join in. Still not sure I believe they don’t already have this working in the labs however – Toast manages iDVD standard of Blu-Ray authoring already.
[Jeremy Garchow] “if this were the case, they wouldn’t put DVD drives in their computers either as DVDs still outsell BluRays by far. I just don’t believe that putting a BluRay burner in their computers would help or hurt iTunes sales”
Nice point – but misguided IMHO. The difference between Blu-Ray and DVD was the level of market penetration when this became an issue for Apple. When they started selling movies, DVD was already the default format for movies – and they had to support it. It also makes a great data format for software and archiving – which is what Blu-Ray could be – imagine the whole FCS install on ONE disk. Remember the piles of floppies we used to get before CD-ROM?
In the case of HD rentals/purchases, there is still a battle to be won. A much as Blu-Ray has won the HD-DISK war, downloading movies is rapidly becoming a viable alternative, which is why the likes of Netflix have also started offering a download service. Faster broadband will, eventually, render Blu-Ray disks pointless for movies IMHO, but it’ll take a while. I think Apple would rather sit it out until this point in time – but at the moment it’ll just take too long for this to happen. In the end, they will have to join the party.
[Jeremy Garchow] “And seriously, the Macbook shouldn’t be used as an editor anyway (in my opinion). You can get the new 15″ macbook Pro for $600 or $800 more and have a computer that really works instead of one that limps along”
Now, I was pretty clear at the start of the thread I didn’t want this as a main machine – just a travel machine for work and a little prep etc. I’m typing this on a MBP I guess I will be working with for at least another 12 months. But that’s not the point here: The new Macbook SHOULD (and – hey – this is only an educated guess) be able to run FCS just fine – even Motion. For many users, especially FC Express and iApps users, the MacBook is now a Pro spec machine, with one glaring omission….
Take a look at Gizmodo’s unusually good review of both systems:
https://gizmodo.com/5063492/macbook-and-macbook-pro-dual-review
Look near the end at this section:
“So Who Needs The MacBook Pro over the Macbook?
In one word, pros. (Suiting, we know.) Video professionals will need the MBP because the MB no longer has FireWire, still a big deal for video guys. USB is fast, but its speeds aren’t sustained. Those who use FireWire require predictable transfer rates, a connection that won’t drop during realtime video playback from an external hard drive or capture from a video deck.
Anyone who requires an ExpressCard, too, will need to spend the extra cash on a MBP. Many 3G peripherals use this slot—and some correct Apple’s willful memory-card ignorance by filling it with an SD/MS reader—but there are just as many USB peripherals, so its omission in the MB probably isn’t as damning as FireWire’s.
And then, of course, there’s the group that requires the MacBook Pro’s discrete graphics card with a half-gig of dedicated RAM. Large textures and massive Photoshop files require a level of performance that the basic MacBook’s integrated graphics, even Nvidia’s most boastworthy—just can’t replace.
In this regard, we see the line drawn in the sand between the MacBook and the MacBook Pro. Similar processors, different graphics and FireWire and ExpressCard only if you pay up.”
Yup – the gfx aren’t as wiz-bang on the MB, but they’re not far off the last-gen MBP, and for all I know they’re better than the gfx on my own X1600 MBP. These ‘integrated’ gfx on the new MB are ‘integrated’ in system terms only – they suffer from nowhere near the same slowdowns as the old Intel integrated setup.
Look – Apple can do what they like. The world won’t stop turning. Just realise that where they used to court Pro users (and I’ve spent over $20,000 with them in 2 years) they now have a different focus. I have to look a few years ahead – and barring an amazing FCS update, I’m worried about the future support I can expect to receive from the single manufacturer into whose basket I put all my eggs. I think the Blu-Ray and FW issues ARE symptomatic of a change of direction from Apple. The next 12 months will prove if I’m right.
Feeling your jetlag – I think 10 percent of me is still out in Kentucky from the Ryder, and another 10 percent is in Dublin from last week….
Kind regards
Ben
Edit Out Ltd
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Hi
The music-fascinated teenager – of any age 😉 – who feels the urge to create their own music, rather than just consume=download someone else’s, they’re in a no-win situation.They have no revenue stream – can’t hope to have a revenue stream – because nowadays music is universally freely given-away. So they will spend their money with extreme caution.
Almost to a person they realise that Mac OS X’s plug’n’play advantages when it cvomes to computer-based music creation are something to aspire to. 🙂
Logic Studio is available at a price all can afford.
Yet the very few multi-channel audio I/O devices (4 or more channels, both ways simultaneously) that used USB have failed/been discontinued – because FireWire has overwhelming stability and performance advantages.
Whilst a few manufacturers have produced PCIe I/O systems, there are droves of manufacturers, big and specialist (Apple included in their partnership with Apogee) who are even now announcing newly specced FireWire music recording or processing devices.
Their isn’t an alternative technology available – now of in the near future – to subsitute for these devices.
A lot of these youngsters, whilst aspiring to the simplicity of Mac OS X, are adept at manipulating Windows PC hardware. What better incentive could Steve Jobs give to the hackintosh community to get to it, and make it work… 🙁
Apparently Steve’s concerned we’re not all drooling over his unibody brick – some things do get through!
https://www.PetitionOnline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?MB1394 -
Hi
The music-fascinated teenager – of any age 😉 – who feels the urge to create their own music, rather than just consume=download someone else’s, they’re in a no-win situation.They have no revenue stream – can’t hope to have a revenue stream – because nowadays music is universally freely given-away. So they will spend their money with extreme caution.
Almost to a person they realise that Mac OS X’s plug’n’play advantages when it cvomes to computer-based music creation are something to aspire to. 🙂
Logic Studio is available at a price all can afford.
Yet the very few multi-channel audio I/O devices (4 or more channels, both ways simultaneously) that used USB have failed/been discontinued – because FireWire has overwhelming stability and performance advantages.
Whilst a few manufacturers have produced PCIe I/O systems, there are droves of manufacturers, big and speshialist* (Apple included in their partnership with Apogee) who are even now announcing newly specced FireWire music recording or processing devices.
Their isn’t an alternative technology available – now of in the near future – to subsitute for these devices.
A lot of these youngsters, whilst aspiring to the simplicity of Mac OS X, are adept at manipulating Windows PC hardware. What better incentive could Steve Jobs give to the hackintosh community to get to it, and make it work… 🙁
Apparently Steve’s concerned we’re not all drooling over his unibody brick – some things do get through!
https://www.PetitionOnline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?MB1394* Correct word spelling blocked by Cow.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “I did Google it and found one in Chicago, actually. It was no less than 1,000 discs made @ $3.25 a disc, which did not include a $1300 AACS fee plus $.04 per disc for the AACS. So, that means I can get 1,000 discs (no less) and that will cost me $4,590 plus tax and shipping. Cheaper than when I last checked, but still not cheap.”
One thing I NEVER said is that BluRay is cheap. I just said there are more BluRay replication options out there than 14 months ago.
Here is the company in Phoenix
ProAction Media
https://www.proactionmedia.comThese folks are actively touting DoStudio as an authoring option for folks like us and then we can send the master to them for replication. Not sure if they take a BD-R or a DLT, we never got that far in our discussions as we are self-publishing all our own work for now. We’ve run about 300 BluRays now out of our own equipment.
The price for all the equipment was less than a single run of BluRay discs at the time and I’m still glad we have all of this gear here. It’s great for runs of 10 to 50 at a time.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
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Actually this applies to all students – many of whom purchase FCS at considerable student discounts. At a single stroke, Apple have cut off a generation of laptop toting FCP learning students, who now have no way to connect a video drive or DV camera to their personal computer. Even if they’re using a newer HD camera, they still have NO WAY to play the captured video reliably.
If you think this is hyperbole, then think again. If you were heartened as I have been by a new generation of students bought up in FCP at college, now making their way into production and post-production, helping in no small part to tip the balance in broadcast towards FCP away from AVID then wonder how many of them will buy a $2000 MBP. To say nothing of the film industry directly sourcing talent from film schools, using DV and HDV cameras. If you watched the Apple launch stream of the new laptops, you would have seen the emphasis they put on students – including the now famous shot of a lecture hall full of journalism students (I think it’s from North Western) all toting Macbooks.
All this from the lack of a port? Yes – really. It’s not good enough for Steve Jobs to make a glib response about HD camcorders using USB. Not only does it ignore DV users (still the vast majority) it totally ignores the storage issues removing the FW port causes. Many PC alternatives at LESS price than the MB have Expresscard other interface options.
I suspect Apple will either u-turn on this on pay a heavy price a few years down the line.
Ben
Edit Out Ltd
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FCP Editor/Trainer/System Consultant
EVS/VT Supervisor for live broadcast
RED camera transfer/post
Independent Director/Producer -
Like I said before, it is now cheaper to get a Macbook with firewire. It’s $999:
https://store.apple.com/us/configure/MB402LL/B?mco=MTkzOTI0Nw
I don’t think your student argument is very good either. They get heavily discounted equipment and from the sounds of it, there are more and more students buying macs. Macs and students are not going anywhere.
Jeremy
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I like this discussion! Have at it….
[Jeremy Garchow] “Like I said before, it is now cheaper to get a Macbook with firewire. It’s $999:”
Yup – a Macbook that won’t run FCS. That’s why they hobbled the new ones – it’s essentially a lot closer to a MBP in terms of power, as I said before. Why haven’t Apple updated the tech specs on FCS to state whether or not the new MBs will run it?
[Jeremy Garchow] “They get heavily discounted equipment and from the sounds of it, there are more and more students buying macs”
They get heavily discounted SOFTWARE – on the Apple education store, a MBP is $100 cheaper at $1899, the basic Macbook $50 cheaper at $949. Or $1245 for the new MacBook ‘Bricked’. Wow. More students have Macs because a) they can use all the cool software on them (or at least they could…) and b) because colleges now require students to have a laptop for their courses and c) because Mac is a cool brand.
Final Cut Studio is listed on the UK Apple store for £548.73, £400/$700 less than the normal retail price (for some reason I couldn’t see it on the US store). I imagine institutional prices will be a lot lower – it’s still not going to mean they stump up for MBPs. iMacs all round I guess, until FW disappears on those, or they bring out an iMac Pro.
Honestly Jeremy, it’s hard to say what the impact of Apple’s new direction will be – but you cannot convince me that producing what every reviewer so far has referred to as a 13″ MBP, then equipping it with nothing more useful than USB2 is anything other than a cynical and calculated move by Apple. I imagine they have costed the impact of this decision, and made it for the best business reasons possible, but I think they underestimated the value of the goodwill already lost by their actions.
Ben
Edit Out Ltd
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FCP Editor/Trainer/System Consultant
EVS/VT Supervisor for live broadcast
RED camera transfer/post
Independent Director/Producer -
MacMall has some killer deals too.
Have a wonderful day.
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