Need advice on a workflow (mixing HD and SD on timeline)

[Jerry Hofmann]

I’d convert the DSLR footage to 16:9 DV to match what you’ve shot on the other camera. You can do this with compressor or even MPEG Streamclip… free download from Apple, just search the download area of their site using the name.

You’re going to end up on an SD DVD so there’s likely a better end result if you downconvert the HD footage than if you upconvert the DV footage.

When you’re finished, you just send a non self contained QT movie to iDVD and go…

Do you have a capture card such as a Kona card? If so there’s other workflows which could work quite well. You can upconvert the SD footage to HD with very clean results… then work entirely in HD till the end… but upconverting SD to HD in software just isn’t good enough IMHO… so that’s why the suggestion I made first is likely the way to go for the best end result.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski.

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17″ MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX Cinema Displays

[Richard Doyle]

Thanks Jerry.

If I convert the DSLR footage to DV 16:9, won’t that drastically reduce the quality of the image before I even begin editing?

Am I correct in saying there’s no need for me to convert the DSLR footage to Apple Pro Res 422 HQ if this is the case? I just take the footage straight from the camera, drop it into MPEG streamclip and convert to DV 16:9. Open a DV 16:9 (or DV Anamorphic?) timeline in Final Cut Pro and then bring all of the footage together?

After that, do I just export it as a DV PAL FCPro QuickTime file?

I don’t have a capture card that I’m aware of — I didn’t buy one separate to the computers.

The way I would like to work is like this:

Capture the DV PAL 16:9 XL2 footage off tape. Download the DSLR footage and convert it to Apple Pro Res 422 HQ using Compressor (which is what I’ve been doing).

Then open a 1920 x 1080 timeline in FCPro and simply bring in all of the footage and begin chopping away. If I do this, Final Cut Pro will treat the DV PAL footage as 1920 x 1080 — is that correct? Is that not okay?

I want a high quality DVD, but I also need the footage to look great online and most of what I have is the DSLR footage.

Thanks again.

[Jerry Hofmann]

Of course it will lose quality. But you’re going to do it in any event when you create an SD DVD or a web stream. Might as well get there from the get go, and match your other camera’s footage which is already SD. I don’t think the quality loss is going to be that much different at all in the end. Hey, the story telling you do will affect the success of the project a ton more than the picture quality will. a ton more…

Color correction will add a ton to your look BTW, so figure if you spend time with this – it will help a lot.

Yes, just export a QT as you’ve described.

If you put the SD footage in an HD sequence setting it will have to expand it a ton. It will look pretty bad… that’s why, since you’re going to deliver SD, just get there to preserve that SD original footage. Keep in mind too, that the “look” of your DSLR footage will be retained, but the resolution will be lowered to SD. BUT YOU ALREADY are going to do this when you make the DVD. If you were to deliver HD then the workflow has to change from a down convert to upconverting the SD footage. NOT the best to do this with anybody’s software. It’s best done in a hardware conversion.

Thing is though, you’re not delivering HD…

Web streams are so low res, that it won’t matter here… You’ll be cremating the footage just to produce one. Would HD look better? Maybe if you know what you’re doing with it when you make a web stream, but possibly upconverting the SD footage will look terrible… Try it, accept what looks best to you… Do it as an HD edit all the way, using FCP to upconvert the SD footage. Just put one shot of each in an HD sequence, compress to a web stream and to a DVD. See which way works best for your own eyes…

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski.

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17″ MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX Cinema Displays

[Richard Doyle]

Thanks again. I’m thinking of just getting a Sony EX3 and shooting it all HD instead. Can I mix XDCAM footage and DSLR footage on the same timeline? What kind of set up would that be? When I go into Final Cut Pro, would I just create a 1920×1080 timeline and drop all of the footage into that? Thanks.

[Michael Gissing]

If you can avoid DV codec that would be the best idea. In PAL only DV codec is lower field so mixing lower and upper is a pain, especially if you do speed changes to the DV footage.

In you original post you said 7D 24p PAL. Make sure you are shooting 25 not 24 if you wish to have it in the same timeline as 50i footage. Convert the 7D to ProRes (HQ is not required). The XDCam can also be converted into ProRes although you can have XDCam footage in a ProRes sequence.

[Jerry Hofmann]

Yeah, you can, but they will never match exactly. They wouldn’t have to be resized and you could work in HD till the end.

However shooting it all in the same format is a much better idea. So why not finish with the DSLR?

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski.

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17″ MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX Cinema Displays

[Richard Doyle]

“Of course it will lose quality. But you’re going to do it in any event when you create an SD DVD or a web stream. Might as well get there from the get go, and match your other camera’s footage which is already SD. I don’t think the quality loss is going to be that much different at all in the end. Hey, the story telling you do will affect the success of the project a ton more than the picture quality will. a ton more…”

What do I change the HD DSLR footage to within Compressor or MPEG Streamclip? Is it called ‘DV PAL’ or ‘DV PAL Anamorphic’?

“If you put the SD footage in an HD sequence setting it will have to expand it a ton. It will look pretty bad… that’s why, since you’re going to deliver SD, just get there to preserve that SD original footage. Keep in mind too, that the “look” of your DSLR footage will be retained, but the resolution will be lowered to SD. BUT YOU ALREADY are going to do this when you make the DVD. If you were to deliver HD then the workflow has to change from a down convert to upconverting the SD footage. NOT the best to do this with anybody’s software. It’s best done in a hardware conversion.”

I just set up a 1920×1080 sequence in Final Cut 7. I brought in Apple Pro Res HQ footage (7D dslr footage) and edited some of it on the timeline. I then brought in DV PAL 16:9 50i footage, and it looks okay. I mean, it’s not HD, but it’s fine. I don’t need to cut the SD and HD together too much. It’s in sections. Section 1: HD. Section 2: HD. Section 3: SD. Section 4: HD. Section 5: SD. etc etc etc

So once I’m not chopping between 7d and XL2 footage too much then it’s not too noticeable.

But I must be doing something wrong, as the 7D footage is 24p and the DV PAL footage from the XL2 is 50i (which I believe is 25fps).

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the only thing that I’m doing wrong seems to be that I’m upscaling DV PAL footage to 1920×1080 in the HD timeline. Is that right? I just want to make sure that I understand the processes behind this correctly. Thanks again for all your help. Really appreciate it.

[Richard Doyle]

Well, I’ve just bought the EX3, so I will be using that with the Canon 7D soon.

However, I have some weddings where I’ve shot:

The bride’s preparations with the 7D
Pre-ceremony with the 7D
The ceremony with the XL2
Post-ceremony, photo shoot etc up until speeches with 7D
Speeches with XL2
Cake and dancing with XL2

Highlights of the day will mostly be the 7D footage.

I don’t understand what you mean when you say “If you can avoid DV codec that would be the best idea. In PAL only DV codec is lower field so mixing lower and upper is a pain, especially if you do speed changes to the DV footage.”

Once, I get the EX3 over the coming week or so, I’m finished with interlaced footage and tape forever.

When I come to editing the couple of weddings where I’ve mixed 7D and XL2 footage, I still don’t get what timeline I should put the footage on.

I just set up a 1920×1080 timeline in Final Cut and brought in Apple Pro Res HQ footage from the 7D, and then brought in the DV PAL footage from the XL2. I take it what’s happening is that Final Cut Pro is up-scaling the DV PAL footage from 720×576 (or is it 1024×576?) to 1920×1080. It looks fine, but I’ve been advised against this.

What would you do?

“In you original post you said 7D 24p PAL. Make sure you are shooting 25 not 24 if you wish to have it in the same timeline as 50i footage.”

This is very worrying. Am I screwed? I think the 50i footage is 25fps anyway, is that correct? So I’m putting 50i on a HD timeline for 24p 1920×1080 footage. I can see why that wouldn’t work, but I’ve just tried it and it looks okay. Is there something I’m perhaps not noticing — like the frame rates are off or something. Y’see, with the speeches or other parts of the wedding, where everything is very still, it might not matter if my frame rate is off a bit, once it’s not noticeable to the viewer. Any thoughts?

“Convert the 7D to ProRes (HQ is not required).”

I thought HQ is required if I want the highest quality from the 7D?

“The XDCam can also be converted into ProRes although you can have XDCam footage in a ProRes sequence.”

So I will shoot with the 7d and the EX3. Convert the 7D footage to Pro Res (HQ or not), and convert the XDCAM footage to the same Pro Res quality. Then what do I do? What timeline do I bring it into. Just a 1920×1080 timeline?

Thanks again for your help. I really appreciate it.

[Richard Doyle]

“Yeah, you can, but they will never match exactly.”

That’s okay. I’m shooting primarily weddings in full HD with both the 7D and the EX3. It’s done in sections, like ‘Bride’s preps and pre-ceremony are 7D, ceremony is EX3, photo shoot is 7D etc..

The highlights section at the end is when I’d have to mix the two, but that will be mostly 7D. And I don’t the viewer will notice the difference, since they’re both full HD.

“They wouldn’t have to be resized and you could work in HD till the end.”

Yep, that’s why I just bought an EX3. It’s the best way to go.

“However shooting it all in the same format is a much better idea. So why not finish with the DSLR?”

The DSLR is great for most of a wedding day when you’re trying to go unnoticed by people. It’s also great for shallow depth of field and running and gunning etc. The EX3 is excellent also, but I’m using that primarily for parts of the day where XLR captured audio is vital. Ceremony, speeches, and dancing. Also, for the ceremony, speeches and dancing, I need to be able to do slow creeping zooms every now and then.

Thanks again, Jerry. Fingers crossed when I burn a DVD, the up-scaled DV PAL footage looks fine beside the 7D footage (luckily, I only have a few projects to edit like this).

[Richard Doyle]

Just wondering why Pro Res HQ is not necessary? Is it not the highest quality I can get with my footage?