My NAS goal is to not make Bob Zelin upset

[Glen Carruthers]

Thanks Bob for your comprehensive answer.

I understand and agree with all that you have suggested.

However, I am still confused as to what the QNAP NAS actually can or cannot do.
Call me stupid, but I have read and re-read the QNAP blurbs on it’s LAN, SAN & (supposed) Thunderbolt networking capabilities (and your excellent posts on the subject) but still can’t work it out.

As an independant film-maker of one long-form documentary at a time I need a fast 4k+ capable Edit station plus a less-capable Assistant Edit station (searching shots, organising metadata, bins etc to feed to the main Edit station) connected to the same source footage. I could use the Collaboration features of Resolve Studio to handle real-time conflicts.

If I connect these 2 (& I mean only 2, no need for more) workstations in an isolated network to the QNAP NAS using it’s 2 separate 10GbE ports can it act as a “LAN controller” or even better a “SAN server” without the need for extra hardware or software ?

Or would it still need a switch (to avoid LAN static addresses etc)?

Or would it still need a separate server & SAN software?

I don’t want to trouble you with a detailed explanation.
Simple answers will suffice. Then I will contact you to help set it up.

All the best, Glen

Glen Carruthers
Wildlife Cameraman
Australia

[Bob Zelin]

As an independant film-maker of one long-form documentary at a time I need a fast 4k+ capable Edit station plus a less-capable Assistant Edit station (searching shots, organising metadata, bins etc to feed to the main Edit station) connected to the same source footage. I could use the Collaboration features of Resolve Studio to handle real-time conflicts.

REPLY – to use the Collaboration feature of Resolve Studio, you need the paid version of Resolve for both system, and a dedicated server running PostgreSQL. I used to use the QNAP for this, but now Blackmagic updated the PostgreSQL requirement to 9.5, and the last version of QNAP is 9.3. So it’s back to a dedicated Mac mini for the PostgreSQL database server (or any cheap Mac you have lying around for this).

If I connect these 2 (& I mean only 2, no need for more) workstations in an isolated network to the QNAP NAS using it’s 2 separate 10GbE ports can it act as a “LAN controller” or even better a “SAN server” without the need for extra hardware or software ?

REPLY – you plug each computer into a 10G port if you don’t want to purchase a 10G switch. When you purchase a TVS-873e, it comes with no 10G cards, so you purchase the optional QNAP LAN-10G2T-X550 card ($359 US) and plug one computer into each port. If you purchase the TVS-872XT that comes for free with one 10G port, and you don’t want to purchase a switch, you purchase a QNAP QXG-10G1T ($89) stick that into the QNAP TVS-872XT, and now you have 2 10G ports.
You assign QNAP 10G port # 1 to 192.168.2.3, and make your computer 192.168.2.4
you assign QNAP 10G port # 2 to 192.168.3.3, and make your computer 192.168.3.4
If you say “how come I just can’t buy it, plug it in, and it just works automatically” – well, you can’t – that’s why.

Or would it still need a switch (to avoid LAN static addresses etc)?

REPLY – you need to setup static IP addresses with or without a switch, because you want reliable connection to your QNAP (or any shared storage system). So let’s say you get a Lumaforge Jellyfish, which is a great product.
The Jellyfish base model has 2 10G port that have static IP addresses. You still have to assign a static IP to your computers.
If you are asking “isn’t there a way for someone who knows nothing about any of this stuff to make it work without either hiring someone, or watching a bunch of YouTube Videos ?” – the answer is NO.

Or would it still need a separate server & SAN software?
REPLY – the QNAP is a server. The software is built in. It’s part of the purchase price.

Please let me make this clear. There is a fantasy that you just buy a box, plug in all your computers, and then BAM – you have shared storage. It does not work this way. When you buy a pre fab wonderful system from Lumaforge, Studio Network Solutions, etc. it comes with SUPPORT. Thats what you are paying for. When you buy a QNAP or Synology – there is no setup support. You have to figure it out yourself or you have to hire someone to help you.

If you want my references in Australia, just email me and I will send them to you.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com

[Glen Carruthers]

Thanks Bob

Bummer about the QNAP’s PostgreSQL.

“There is a fantasy that you just buy a box, plug in all your computers, and then BAM – you have shared storage.”
I have no illusions on that score. As with any trade or profession, there are a host of trip-ups and tricks that can only be learned by those with everyday practical experience. Such as yours.

I’ll email you.

Glen Carruthers
Wildlife Cameraman
Australia

[Ronny Courtens]

LumaForge servers run the PostgreSQL database straight off the server, also with the new update. So no external server required for the database. As Bob says, this is part of the support we provide and it is also what differentiates us from QNAP.

– Ronny

[Michael Kofsky]

Okay, hope I’m not posting blasphemy here. Bob, I met you at Cinegear last year and you really are the oracle of 10G.

I’m trying to build a similar 2-mac-only setup to run Resolve only for myself and my wife. We’ve both switched to Resolve for all of post. (We only gave it a shot after Bob suggested we try it–thank you!).

Any experience with the Synology 1817? (Standard version, not the plus) It INCLUDES 2x10G ports, for a very low price. Is this too good to be true? Will I be stuck in 450MB/s crappy 10G land? Or worse?

There’s a video on YT of how to put PostregSQL for Resolve 15 on the Synology directly. I’m willing to tinker and troubleshoot myself until we grow a bit more. But, Bob, if you put the hex on this Synology idea, I’ll do the QNAP-873e or maybe spring for the 872XT if the speed is that much better.

I’m on a 12-core cheesegrater which still runs better than most iMacs. She’s on a MBP with TB2. My idea would be to use a Sonnett solo 10G for me, and the Akito Dock Pro for her using TB2>TB3 adapter. Akito says this will work. (it’s not bus powered) Both appear to be aquantia chips.

NewEgg’s got a solid deal on Seagate 12TB Exos drives, theyre now the same price as IronWold. Any preference?

[Bob Zelin]

Okay, hope I’m not posting blasphemy here. Bob, I met you at Cinegear last year and you really are the oracle of 10G.

REPLY – oh yes, you are, because I can already see – you have only one priority. “What is the ABSOLUTE CHEAPEST THING that I can get”. That’s all you really care about. But you are not alone. That is pretty much all probably 50% of the Creative Cow (and other forum users) care about. “Isn’t there something cheaper”.

I’m trying to build a similar 2-mac-only setup to run Resolve only for myself and my wife. We’ve both switched to Resolve for all of post. (We only gave it a shot after Bob suggested we try it–thank you!).

Any experience with the Synology 1817? (Standard version, not the plus) It INCLUDES 2x10G ports, for a very low price. Is this too good to be true? Will I be stuck in 450MB/s crappy 10G land? Or worse?

REPLY – I know this, because I have been thru this already. You are getting a “great price” because the Synology 1817 uses the incredibly horrible Annapurna CPU processor. It runs painfully slow. AND you think you are getting a deal because it comes with two SLOW 10G ports (“but aren’t all 10G ports exactly the same” ) – simple answer NO.
The Synology 1817 is almost identical to the incredibly useless QNAP TS-831X also with dual 10G ports and the Annapurna CPU. And I see on the QNAP forums people crying and complaining about how horrible the performance is. AND to make matters worse – I OWN A QNAP TS-831X, and let me tell you, it’s the worst product QNAP makes – right up there with the Synology 1817.
The Synology 1817 + has an OPTIONAL 10G card (“oh no – I have to spend more money”) – and it comes with the Intel ATOM CPU, which is not great, but its night and day better than the Annapurna CPU processor. What does all of this mean – it means that the cheap boxes will run SLOW.

There’s a video on YT of how to put PostregSQL for Resolve 15 on the Synology directly. I’m willing to tinker and troubleshoot myself until we grow a bit more. But, Bob, if you put the hex on this Synology idea, I’ll do the QNAP-873e or maybe spring for the 872XT if the speed is that much better.

REPLY – setting up a PostgreSQL on a QNAP or a Synology is not for the weak of heart. That’s why Blackmagic recommends a simple Mac Mini (and most people screw this up as well). But yes, I set up PostgreSQL database servers for Resolve on these all the time, and it works. Remember – you have to have the correct version of PostgreSQL to get Resolve 15.2 to work !
The QNAP TVS-873e also does not come with a 10G card – this is an option. If you want a dual port card, it’s the LAN-10G2T-X550. If you want a single port 10G card, it’s the QXG-10G1T, and then you get a little switch, which is dirt cheap now on the B&H Site. I think the QSW-1208-8C is about $450 now.
As far as performance, the Synology 1817+ with 10G will perform pretty much like the TVS-873e with the 10G card. Both are “ok” but not great.
The TVS-872XT is a new product. It’s $1899 with one 10G port (so you buy the little switch, or put a 10G card inside the QNAP for another port) and it DRAMATICALLY outperforms the QNAP TVS-873e, or Synology 1817+.

I’m on a 12-core cheesegrater which still runs better than most iMacs. She’s on a MBP with TB2. My idea would be to use a Sonnett solo 10G for me, and the Akito Dock Pro for her using TB2>TB3 adapter. Akito says this will work. (it’s not bus powered) Both appear to be aquantia chips.

REPLY –
None of these adaptors will work unless you are using macOS 10.13.3 or later. If you put the $89 Sonnet card inside a 12 core Mac Pro Cheesegrater, and it’s running macOS 10.12.6 or even 10.13 – it will not recognize the Aquantia AQC-107, and there is nowhere to download the driver. It’s build into macOS 10.13.3 – 10.14.3. If you can’t figure out how to get your Mac Pro Cheesegrater to update to a new OS, get the Sonnet Presto 10Gbase-T which is about $300.
As for the TB2 Mac Book Pro – same rules. You must be running macOS 10.13.3 or later, because of the Aquantia 10G chip. The “right” thing to do for a TB2 Mac Book Pro is to purchase a Sonnet Twin 10G or Promise SanLink2. Will the Akitio TB3 dock with a T2 to T3 adaptor work ? I have no idea. I can tell you this. Many T3 products like the Sonnet Solo 10G (which is $179) are BUSS POWERED and draw 60 watts. If there is no external power supply for the Akitio Dock Pro, the thunderbolt 2 port is NEVER EVER going to power the Akitio T3 dock.

NewEgg’s got a solid deal on Seagate 12TB Exos drives, theyre now the same price as IronWold. Any preference?

REPLY – I have no idea. I use Seagate Ironwolf Pro 12 TB drives, which are $379.

SO – how do we end this story ?

QNAP TVS-872XT – $1899
QNAP LAN-10G2T-X550 card, OR a better investment – the QNAP QSW-1208-8C switch. ($589 – the price went back up).
eight Seagate 12 TB Ironwolf drives (buy 9 – you need a spare) – $379 each
Sonnet Presto 10GbaseT card for your old Mac Pro – $276
Sonnet Twin 10G for the Thunderbolt 2 MacBook Pro – $180

total price for hardware – $6355 for 72TB after RAID 6, and this includes a spare drive.
You can get 10TB drives (60 TB after RAID 6) and these are $299 each, so your price will drop by $711
to $5644 total

And when you say OMG THAT IS SO EXPENSIVE – look at the price of a Promise Pegasus or G-Tech G Speed Shuttle XL (and of course, these are for single user – not shared storage, and no PostgreSQL database).

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com

[Michael Tiemann]

One small note: the QNAP and the OS absorbs quite a bit of storage from the raw disks to make its RAID volumes. With 8x 12TB disks you’d think you get a 72TB RAID6, but after formatting and allocation, it’s just shy of 65TB. I all it 64TB because I like round numbers. That doesn’t change anything Bob says about the HW, but it might change your $/TB equations as you look at piles of unmanaged drives vs. A tidy NAS RAID.

Manifold Recording
Pittsboro, NC
https://manifoldrecording.com/

[Alex Gardiner]

Could it be that the QNAP reports space in TiB?

Just a thought for the weekend.

72TB is pretty much 65TiB 🙂

alex@indiestor.com