-
Multiple Camera Capture?
Hey all:
I wasn’t sure about where I should post this, but I assume that this type of thing would need to be done over a fibre channel SAN.
I’m interested in capturing up to 12 camera streams. This is not for streaming, but to capture, say a maximum of 12 cameras at the same time.
I realize that there are a number of ways that a set up like this might be configured, but I would like to capture these to hard drives. Also, it makes sense to capture the raw component out and do a realtime compression to ProRes422.
So, I’m sure I’ll have to look at the throughput of each stream and figure out how to handle that sort of dataflow through fibrechannel. But is this a really uncommon situation? Are there capture cards that support more than one channel of input?
In some ways I guess this is like, in the audio world, setting up a multitrack recorder. I want to capture 12 discreet channels of video, in realtime, to a raid enclosure.
I’m doing the preliminary research now so if anyone has any direction they’d like to point me in it’d be MUCH appreciated. Thanks!
Adam.
-
13 Replies
-
Easy –
Telestream Pipeline.4 SD-SDI cameras per box – $10,000 per box
2 HD-SDI cameras per box – $10,000 per box.
You can run multiple boxes. It depends on the resolution you want to use that will determine the number of cameras you want to use.Capturing 12 discreet cameras at once is A LOT OF CAMERAS. Professional video is not a PELCO or SPECO security system that can do this with 16 IP or composite video cameras for $1200.
Bob Zelin
-
Is this a fixed installation or mobile?… temporary or long term? Do you need to access the media as it’s recording? Do you need matching TC across all 12?
If it’s temporary then I’d say rent 12 Ki Pros… right off the bat.
John Heagy
-
Telestream. Interesting! I’ve done a little reading on it after your suggestion. Looks like what I had imagined a solution might look like. I guess it does 2 channels of HD ProRes encoding and writes it out to an array somewhere via fibre? There isn’t too much technical data available on the website.
John: This is a permanent installation, long term. I would like access to the data while it’s recording, either to do a preliminary edit, or to monitor the feed. I do need them time code synced. Good suggestion on the Ki. I actually looked at that early on as well. However, I would rather have the video captured remotely to a disk farm where I can watch the ingest. But it’s another good solution depending on budget and infrastructure. As I understand it, you just connect the component out of the cameras into the Ki and it does the realtime encode to whatever format you choose. Then you have to ingest to your raid or whatever after the fact, yes?
I’d like to keep the steps to a minimum, so if we can skip an offload that’d be great. But, perhaps for fewer cameras this would be ok.
Bob: The thread here: https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/180/857094#857094 seems to address exactly what I’m thinking. FC Xsan may be what I want to do based on your Disney project. Did you have the Telestream running on that project for the encode?
Good point about timecode. I’m not sure
Adam Garner
film+motion+video
https://www.trigger-studios.com -
No, for the Disney job, there was a remote truck, that shot 9 cameras. The EVS media was transcoded. Big truck shoots use EVS for multi camera recording.
The Ki Pro will not work. You can’t daisy chain 12 FW800 drives together, and have all cameras playback in multiclip (12 streams) from a FW800 buss. Ain’t gonna happen – not even in your dreams.
Bob Zelin
-
Alright, I’m just wrapping my brain around this stuff Bob. Much thanks for the input here. Evs, telestream, these are all things that I haven’t been exposed to just yet. I come from the film world where delivery is far from immediate.
So a few questions:
1: Ki Pro – I think this is far from the solution. My understanding of the workflow is that you directly attach one camera and capture the component out. Then, you’d have to sync TC after importing to your FCP workstation.
2: Telestream – Seems to capture two raw streams and from there writes the compressed data to a RAID. You can put, say, 6 of them together and capture 12 cameras raw, convert them real time and write to some type of ultra fast disk farm… probably fiber channel. Seems like part of the solution where the EVS is the whole solution…
3: EVS : Looks like a much higher complexity system with XSan on the back end. Handles roughly 6 cameras?… maybe more if you have the right setup? This seems like maybe the direction I’d want to take with a 6-12 camera setup, permanent install. This will capture all the streams live (converted to ProRes422), and store them to the SAN, allow me to do live viewing of captured media…
Am I on the right track?
Adam Garner
film+motion+video
https://www.trigger-studios.com -
Hey Adam,
First off, when you say “raw component”… do you mean HD-SDI? It’s true, HD-SDI transports a digital component signal, but simply saying “component” invites confusion with analog component… unless you do mean analog component?
Ki Pro is the closest one can get to a digital file recorder as a “VTR replacement”. It has all the inputs, including LTC TC, something I wish the Kona 3 or future Kona 4 would add. It records only ProRes using built in hardware encoders. You cannot access the media as it records. Since the Ki Pro has TC inputs, aside from making a “Multi Clip” in FCP, there’s no need to manually sync the media.
Telestream Pipeline also uses hardware encoders but does not have it’s own storage, like the Ki Pro does. The dual stream data is streamed via a single GigE connection. One could plug 3 or 4 HD Pipelines into a single Xserve Xsan client. Unfortunately it lacks a LTC TC, but oddly does read VITC on the sync input. The trick is playback while recording, what I like to call “chase playback”. Telestrem offers a basic package called Pipeline Live that supports this. Building 4 Media can use Pipelines as well as two inputs per Kona 3 card.
EVS is the 800lb gorilla, a turn key solution, and costs well over $100,000 just to get your toes wet. It does chase playback and integrates with FCP.
We have 32 HD ingest channels via Kona 3 equipped Xserves, all Xsan clients, using Building 4 Media as the ingest and playout software. It does chase playback and relies on SNTP for TC, or embedded TC in HD-SDI.
Blackmagic makes a two input card and Matrox a 4. I don’t know what software suites takes advantage of the multi stream ingest though.
Good luck
John Heagy -
Adam,
let’s get one thing straight, before you ask any more questions. I recently put in a 16 camera security system for my condo building. IT costs under $1500 for a 16 camera digital video recorder (from SPECO) and this records all 16 cameras, gives you a multiplexer, and lets you play back any of the individual cameras, or lets you “multiclip” all 16 playback at once.You want to do a PROFESSIONAL 12 camera simultaneous record system of PROFESSIONAL HD CAMERAS. Do you have ANY IDEA of how much this is going to cost you ? Do you think this is going to be some $5000 box that is going to let you record 12 HD cameras at ProRes422, multiclip the job in FCP, select your clips, and output your show from the 12 camera multiclip viewing ? DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS INVOLVED IN THE COST OF DOING THIS ADAM ? Are you working for a big wealthy company that does major concerts, and sporting events ? This is NOTHING like the security camera system I described, that cost $1500 bucks. You are talking about a very complex task, that requires a LOT of hardware, with VERY FAST computers, and VERY fast drive arrays that can play this back. If you don’t have a lot of money to make this happen, then your research is just a waste of time, because there is no $5000 solution.
I have set up cheap shared storage systems that can playback 14 streams of HDV footage once captured ONE CAMERA AT A TIME. But you want to digitize ALL 12 CAMERAS at once, and then edit, and create a show – correct? THIS COSTS A LOT OF MONEY. Yes, it can be done.
bob Zelin
-
John Heagy is correct in specifying 12 recorders like the AJA KiPro’s, that will record each of the 12 cameras to a seperate FW800 hard drive. But I think you want to digitize all 12 cameras at once so you can play these back in multiclip (or multicam) for editing – not transfering each drive to a SAN, one at a time. For the answer – see my other rant post.
Bob Zelin
-
Most other forums I participate in there is a sense of camaraderie. Not sure I’m getting that feeling here. I do realize that this is my first few posts in these forums, but one shouldn’t assume that means this is my first day on the job.
Understand that I *get* the complexity of what I’m building here. That’s why I didn’t post in the “condo security cam” forum, but rather in the “SAN forum.”
I’m a degreed computer engineer who has more years of experience working with SAN architectures and implementations than I care to remember. I am also a professional filmmaker and film editor. I have a unique background I know, and that’s why I’m involved in this project. Yes there is a healthy budget.
So, I’m doing my due diligence by making sure I understand what some of the solutions look like, and that’s why I’m here. Bob, you seem like a knowledgable guy who is perhaps a bit frustrated with the iMovie “wet behind the ears” generation that can do everything from their bedroom, and I can appreciate that. I’m just looking for some guidance from the subject matter experts here. So, any further input that could be valuable? Anyone else want to chime in?
EVS sounds attractive as a full scale solution.
FCP network + XSan sound like something to dig deeper into as well.
These telestream boxes seem sort of good for some tasks but are only part of the solution.
I’m really just looking for some high level “Hey, here’s a particular setup that so-and-so uses for 8 camera shoots” or whatever. I’ll do the detailed research myself and ask questions later.
Adam Garner
film+motion+video
https://www.trigger-studios.com -
Adam,
I answered your questions politely before. I said “Telestream Pipeline”. It is now your job to call Telestream –https://www.telestream.net/pipeline/overview.htm
What you will find is that it is difficult to capture more than 4 streams of HD-SDI at once using Pipeline. The single box is designed to send 2 baseband HD-SDI streams over ethernet into your FCP system, so you don’t have to capture twice. The guys here that said that you should use 12 KiPro’s would require you to transfer 12 drives to your shared volume, and it appears that you want to capture 12 streams DIRECTLY to your shared volume at once, and not one at a time. I am guessing that you will fail if you try to hookup 3 or more Pipeline boxes at once, to get up to 12 cameras (6 boxes)
over an ethernet connection (even with Link Agg, there is only so much data you can push at once). And 12 streams of ProREs422 at 20Mb/sec each is 240Mb/sec – that’s too much for a lowly ethernet port.FCP Network and XSAN is a shared storage enviornment – it will let you play back all these streams (240Mb/sec 12 cameras at once for editing), but this is not an injest solution. You have been told that the EVS will do a large capture like this, but a 12 channel EVS will cost A LOT of money.
This is the EVS. Now, you have already been given all this information. It’s time to pick up the phone, and start making some calls to see what your limitations are (like budget). Or perhaps, you want me to come over there, and make these calls for you, while I give you a bath and cook you dinner ?
And get a haircut, you damn hippy !
Bob Zelin
Reply to this Discussion! Login or Sign Up