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More Bricklayers and Sculptors from Oliver and Simon
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[Robin S. Kurz] “Just ignore the quote to cloak the actual context of what I meant as well as the capriciousness of your “argument”.”
I’m not going to try to explain to you how cherry-picking quotes that support your particular POV is out of context.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[greg janza] “[Tim Wilson] “This isn’t about NLE choices. It’s about editing style.”
Amen Tim! I think several of us here have been trying (without much success) to make that same distinction in this discussion thread.”
I think the reason you have not been successful is because some are saying that “X” makes this “editing style” irrelevant. Just by the nature of how it works.
The task is to convince people otherwise and so far that’s been a fail.
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[Mark Smith] “Hopefully he doesn’t edit as fast as Thomas Carter, I always need to watch his stuff frame by frame as he edits both addtiively and reductively a bit too fast .”
Ironically, TGC’s demos are the epitome of a subtractive/sculpting workflow. ☺ And yes, there’s organization at the front end. Which is why some of us have been arguing all along that this thread was never about NLE wars, but rather style.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
I don’t have an NLE dog in this fight. While I don’t use Premiere I don’t have any grudges against it. I’d like see a demo video of what Simon is describing, maybe it will open my eyes to some new possibilities.
Editing is both constructive and reductive, so yeah TGC carves away as he edits, but he also builds as virtually every editor does. It could be that the sculptor metaphor is just ill suited in this case. Stone carvers are pure reductionists, editors are only somewhat reductionist. Editors also have ‘snapshots’ and tons of levels of ‘undo’.
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In reading the comments here, I wonder if the majority of the posters in this thread have missed Simon’s point entirely. It’s right in the title: Always Be Editing.
Collections and bins hold clips. A string-out, being a sequence, is fundamentally different; it holds edits, or sets of clips that are juxtaposed linearly in time. That juxtaposition in time, the choices that Simon continuously iterates over in his method, is the “value” over a mere set of clips.
You have to start putting one clip after another eventually. Simon’s ABE method does it from the beginning. That’s a really interest shift in perspective from how a lot of us work.
Somewhere, Sergei Eisenstein is reading the comments in this thread that the browser IS a stringout, and he’s weeping.
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
[Walter Soyka] “In reading the comments here, I wonder if the majority of the posters in this thread have missed Simon’s point entirely. It’s right in the title: Always Be Editing. “
Has it occurred to you that they don’t feel his method is effective?
The organizational tools in X are so effective it’s hard to make an argument against them, so the case becomes………oh, just by pass those tools and dump everything into timelines, (arguable taking away a key strength X)
No thanks
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[Tony West] “Has it occurred to you that they don’t feel his method is effective?”
It’s clear to me that they don’t feel his method is effective. But I don’t think enough people have thought the ABE method through — or heaven forbid, actually tried it! — before making a snap judgement on its efficacy. I know how much the regulars here hate it when someone trashes FCPX’s new way of working without actually trying it, yet a number of folks have been very quick to do just that with Simon’s NLE-agnostic approach.
ABE is not equivalent to “convert your bins to stringouts” and I doubt that many here have every actually work this way in any application.
[Tony West] “The organizational tools in X are so effective it’s hard to make an argument against them, so the case becomes………oh, just by pass those tools and dump everything into timelines, (arguable taking away a key strength X) No thanks”
Consider ABE with the same open-mindedness that you needed to adopt FCPX in the first place — and remember that FCPX has a lot of other strengths! The magnetic timeline itself, the skimmer, roles, and the timeline index would all play nicely with the ABE approach.
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
[Tony West] “The organizational tools in X are so effective it’s hard to make an argument against them, so the case becomes………oh, just by pass those tools and dump everything into timelines, (arguable taking away a key strength X)”
Where the communications break down in this discussion is that the folks that advocate for only X’s approach don’t want to acknowledge that others have also been using X for 6 years and come to a different conclusion. That’s why it’s unproductive to frame this as an X versus others discussion.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Walter Soyka] “Collections and bins hold clips. A string-out, being a sequence, is fundamentally different; it holds edits, or sets of clips that are juxtaposed linearly in time. That juxtaposition in time, the choices that Simon continuously iterates over in his method, is the “value” over a mere set of clips.”
This is one area where FCP X is different from other programs. The browser can be a “set of clips that are juxtaposed linearly in time” in the filmstrip view. Now you can’t reorder clips within it, but usually that defeats the purpose of the string out anyways. I would argue it provides MORE temporal information with Favorites, Keyword indicators, and Used Clip Indicators.
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Brett Sherman
One Man Band (If it\’s video related I\’ll do it!)
I work for an institution that probably does not want to be associated with my babblings here. -
[Oliver Peters] “Where the communications break down in this discussion is that the folks that advocate for only X’s approach don’t want to acknowledge that others have also been using X for 6 years and come to a different conclusion. That’s why it’s unproductive to frame this as an X versus others discussion.
“That’s exactly what it is.
The debate breaks down right across NLE lines and anybody that can’t see that is not being truthful.
All the same people who use X as their favorite tool are against and folks who don’t are for. Simple as that.
I just don’t happen to think that’s a coincidence.
BTW you still haven’t answered my simple question. What is the method to find the clips that you cut out of the timeline? Just explain it. It shouldn’t be that hard since you supposedly use this method all the time.
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