Mixing 3-perf and 4-perf in Cinema Tools

[Neil Sadwelkar]

You will not be able to mix 3-perf and 4-perf in one database. You can, however use them in one project and one timeline.

Why do you need to make cut lists? You surely cannot cut the negative and hope to splice 3-perf and 4-perf together? In fact, how do you propose to use a 3-perf cut list? Are there 3-perf neg cutters in your area?

My advice is to stay with EDLs. All DI systems work only with EDLs. They are key code agnostic. In fact in our DI facility we don’t take anyhing except EDLs. And in some recent movies I’ve worked on, we didn’t even make databases.

Anyway, if you absolutely have to have cutlists, then you need to keep the 3perf and 4perf shots on separate video layers. Then after the edit is finished, you can dupe the edit and make two timelines one for V1 only and one for V2 only. Say V1 was 4perf and V2 was 3perf, you can now generate two cutlists one for 4perf and one for 3perf.

In the 4perf cut list the 3perf clips will be blank and in the 3perf cut list the 4perf clips will be blank. So you can have a ‘sort of A/B roll’ negative.

———————————–
Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India

[Michael Nichols]

Agreed. Just work with EDL. I recently did a 2perf/4perf mixed feature and sent the EDLs to the scan house.

[Warren Eig]

Yes, you are forced to do a DI you cannot cut negative with a mixture of 3 & 4 perf.

Warren

Warren Eig
O 310-470-0905

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[Carsten Kurpanek]

I’m also on a feature that mixed 3perf and 4perf and we’re about to do a DI. You suggest to stick to the EDLs, but how do they know what frames to scan based on the EDL? The EDL contains the placement of a clip in the timeline and its origin on the video tape it came from, right? How does this information relate back to the original 35mm film?

Thanks.

http://www.carstenkurpanek.com

[Simon Epstein]

Carsten,
The previous suggestion about using EDLs is wrong for the reason you mentioned. Mixing the 2 wouldn’t be a problem if you weren’t rescanning the negative.

Having maintained 2 separate databases in cinema tools, we are simply delivering 2 cut lists. It isn’t ideal, but after some tests, this was the best way to ensure there weren’t errors and that the proper frames are being scanned.

-Simon

[Carsten Kurpanek]

Thank you, Simon, for confirming this. I did maintain two separate databases and will export two separate cut lists.

Best,
C.

http://www.carstenkurpanek.com

[Neil Sadwelkar]

If you plan on a DI finish then the EDL suggestion is not wrong. DI scanning, conform and grading systems do not read keycodes for the purpose of locating frames or conforming sequences. They use time code from the EDL.

The way it works is that each lab roll has a hole punch at the head which is ‘assigned’ a time code at the time of telecine. This time code is on the telecine’d tape. Your edit system edits and tracks this time code. When the EDL is returned to the scanner, the operator sets the film on the hole punch and ‘assigns’ the time code as per the log for each lab roll. Then the scanner looks at the EDL and scans only the used shots.

The conform and grading system also look at the EDL time code and compare that with the timecode embedded in the DPX frames that the scanner puts out, and then builds a sequence that exactly matches your edit.

I’m talking about the following scanners – Spirit 4k, Northlight 1 and 2, Golden Eye, Arriscan, Lasergraphics. All these use EDLs.
And conforming/grading systems – Nucoda Film Master, Autodesk Lustre, Quantel iQ, Resolve. These also use EDLs for conform.

The only place you need cutlists is for a physical negative cut. And even in that, since you have 3-perf and 4-perf mixed, you cannot have a single roll negative cut.

Hence the EDL suggestion.

Mote details at my DI site
https://www.sadwelkar.com/DI.htm

———————————–
Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India

[Carsten Kurpanek]

Thank you, Neil, for explaining this. One more question, though: How does the scanner operator know what labroll he needs to use for the scan since that info is not included in the EDL?

Thanks again!

http://www.carstenkurpanek.com