mixer vs multitrack field recorder

[Ty Ford]

Hello Tim and welcome to the Cow Audio Forum.

Why can’t a two person doc crew include an audio person? I work that way a lot.

Why do you need 4 tracks

Regards,

Ty Ford

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[Tim Dowse]

Hi Ty,

Well, what I mean is that I don’t have a dedicated sound professional who makes his living doing sound. It’s me, directing and being sound op too.

I want 4 tracks to give me the flexibility for events that I have to cover where I use more than two mics. For some of the documentary shoots, I wouldn’t use all four all of the time, but I want to have the option for other shoots.

I am attracted to the 4 track recorder as opposed to the mixer because then I don’t have to make mixing decisions on location. I can just set the levels, monitor that they aren’t getting too high or too low, and then focus more attention on directing. Then I can worry about the mix later when there’s less pressure and less else to worry about.

I am just concerned that I might be missing something significant by not getting a mixer.

Tim

[Ty Ford]

Well how ’bout this?

Eight reasons why you need a mixer
1. They let you vary volumes without shaking the camera or getting in the way of the camera op.
2. You may need to do that a lot with some people. I ride gain even if one person is talking if their voice fades on the end of each line. You can only do this in a relatively quiet environment, otherwise you bring up the ambient noise.
3. Mixer preamps (good ones) sound better than camera preamps.
4. Good mixers have input transformers that scrape off RF before it get into your audio.
5. Good mixers have limiters that allow you to record hotter, keeping your audio further above the noise floor without distorting.
6. Good mixers have EQ that lets you roll of LF HVAC noise before it gets into your audio.
7. Good mixers have mulitple outputs so you can feed more than one camera, or separate recorder simultaneously.
8. Good mixers make your sound better. If they didn’t pros wouldn’t use them.

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[Tim Dowse]

I understand the pros of mixers per se. I was wondering if those pros are worth the cost of not being able to record to separate tracks, given that I won’t be able to devote my full attention to mixing at all times.

With the Edirol, I’ll be recording dual system, syncing later (with pluraleyes, and slates as a backup). The Edirol also has a limiter, low cut filter, and some other effects. And of course more sample frequency and bit-rate options than a camera.

I am just wondering if the pre-amps on a $700 mixer will be that much better than the edirol, to the extent that I should give up the safety of recording to several tracks. Unless there was a seriously noticeable difference, I think I’ll go with the edirol.

[Jonathan Mitchell]

Hello Tim,

To answer your questions is not so simple one both machines record sound to a lesser or greator degree. Try has given you a very good answer and has produced a very good film on the diferent mics you can use. I think you should keep your recording process as simple as possible. Two tracks is more than enough. If you are going to have a dedicated sound person then they can make the correct descission. If you are going to be camera director and sound op then keep it simple if you get one thing wronge in the filming process it can ruin a film.

Kind regards Jonathan Mitchell

[Ty Ford]

I understand the pros of mixers per se. I was wondering if those pros are worth the cost of not being able to record to separate tracks, given that I won’t be able to devote my full attention to mixing at all times.

>>Not in my opinion.

With the Edirol, I’ll be recording dual system, syncing later (with pluraleyes, and slates as a backup). The Edirol also has a limiter, low cut filter, and some other effects. And of course more sample frequency and bit-rate options than a camera.

>>Yes, but unattended, or semi attended. Would you shoot unattended or semi attended?

I am just wondering if the pre-amps on a $700 mixer will be that much better than the edirol, to the extent that I should give up the safety of recording to several tracks. Unless there was a seriously noticeable difference, I think I’ll go with the edirol.

>>First, can you hear the difference? Second, the quality of sound has also to do with mics and techniques.

The real gamble here is your intent to leave audio unattended. This is not only a gear issue, it’s a people issue. I can not in good conscience advise you to leave audio unattended.

Congratulations on your “growing pains.” I think it’s time to “grow” your crew as well as your equipment locker. Tough love, perhaps, but there you have it. 🙂

Regards,

Ty Ford

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[Tim Dowse]

Thanks for all your replies, I really appreciate it. Perhaps I wasn’t clear…I won’t be leaving mics unattended. I will be monitoring levels at all times. I am just talking about mixing in real time vs monitoring levels.

Believe me, I would dearly love to have a sound guy, but I don’t have this option. I may have at other times on other projects. I notice that Nick Broomfield runs his own sound…if I must limit my success to that level, I’ll cope 😉

Maybe a better way to frame the question then. The scenario is:

A documentary crew, using two lavs taped to the main “characters” (using moleskin), and then using a boom as a backup, and to record other people who interact with my protagonists. As a matter of course, there is also a shotgun mounted on the camera. What would a sound-pro do? Would he prefer:

a) using a $700 mixer, with a Zoom H4n
b) an edirol 4-track sound recorder.

Bear in mind that the producer is perfectly happy to have the tracks recorded separately, and does not need the sound mixed in real time (because he has time in post), unless there is something about option a) that clearly gives the sound a better quality.

[Jonathan Mitchell]

As a sound professional I would choose to use a 4 channel mixer such as the Cooper or sound devices or SQN they all have nice mic amps with decent out puts. A two track recorder would be fine I can easily have the boom mic to cover actuality and send it to channel one of the recorder. Channel two can have the mix of the radio mics. I would put a decent camera mic on the camera for synch purposes only and do not reliy on puralise.

From reading your comments you may have sceen a sound operator at work but not picked upon the finer details of there work. The whole point of hireing a sound profesional is to get good location audio. Spending hours in post trying to fix bad audio is frustraiting and a waste of time. it does not matter how many tracks you may have if the sound is off mic distorted or peeking at the wrong moements.

Kind regards Jonathan Mitchell

[Tim Dowse]

Thanks for the feedback. Like I said, I would dearly love to be able to hire a sound op, because I know they will get good location audio. Otherwise I wouldn’t want to hire one.

But money doesn’t go on trees, so I am trying to figure out the best way of working with what I’ve got, and what I can purchase to make my job the best it can be, even if that’s still below the standard of a higher budget project.

And if I have given you the impression that I don’t understand the finer details of their work, you are right. I am not a sound op, nor have I trained to be one. That is why I came here to ask for advice.

[Al Bergstein]

Tim, all the advice previous is good, and I understand your dilemma.I’ve used the edirol, and it’s great, but if you really need four inputs, you might start with the edirol & save for a Sd mixer down the road. My guess is you won’t end up using four mics much, as it’s hard to onitor w/o a sound man. However, do you need battery operation? You might be able to get by with pluggeable audio gear,for mixing, which could allow you to buy a two channel recorder. That’s what we do on occasion. Surprising how widespread electrical current is these days!

Alf