Mini or Flip cam

[John Rofrano]

[Scott Francis] “I just want the BEST quality for the $, and low light may also be an issue.”

Actually you want more than that and it’s extremely important that you do.

You want a camera that is COMPATIBLE WITH VEGAS!!!

That pretty much eliminates the Flip which is more compatible with the Mac and is the primary reason that I bought the Kodak Zi8. It really doesn’t matter how good the camera shoots if you can’t edit the footage! I can’t tell you how many people come here complaining that Vegas can’t edit the footage from their new $99 camera. Get one that works with Vegas.

I recommend the Kodak Zi8. It edits beautifully in Vegas Pro 10.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com

[Scott Francis]

Thanks John, I was leaning that way, just I have not used ANY of these small cams…so I thought I would check out from others as well….I will look into that one.. and I really appreciate all the input and help…. I REALLY love this forum and all your input!!

Scott Francis
Mind’s Eye Audio/Video Productions

[Dave Haynie]

I do believe the Kodak rates higher than the Flip in most comparisons. But these Webcam camcorders still bother me. One clue… look at the lens. On most models, where the lens should be, you’ll find plastic, and way deep down, a tiny lens. That’s your light sensitivity, no zoom, and quality loss right there.

For super cheap camcorders, at least check out the Sanyo Xacti FH1A. This is on Amazon.com for less than $300 most times… a bit more than a Flip or Kodak. But it has a 10:1 zoom, it shoots in SD or HD, including 1080/60p (useful for sports). It also makes a passable still camera. It’s decent in low light, thanks to a large CMOS sensor. Files are in MPEG-4 an AAC (.mp4 container), so they generally work very well in Vegas.

One problem .. the 1080/60p mode, on the FH1 anyway, produces a slightly illegal MP4 file, which causes Vegas 9 to crash. Easily fixed (well, if you’re a video guy and know how to remux things… YAMB usually does the job). And like most of the cheaper models, you get a short glitch between 4GB segments in your video.

This is my current “backpacking camera”… no tragedy if it gets destroyed, but also fairly rugged, compared to tape and OIS (optical stabilization) mechanicals on better cameras.

Curiously, the FH1A can also connect directly to a USB storage device, and let you copy files to it (HDD or Flash memory), without the need for a PC. This ought to be standard on all tapeless camcorders.

-Dave

[Scott Francis]

OK, so got a Kodak ZI8 and none to happy with the results. Shot in 1080p in my kitchen with 5 lights and light through a glass door during the day and has a lot of noise. Outside looked good, but this would be used in somewhat low-light most of the time. Also, sensor has a glitch where there is a small white “line” bouncing in the same area of the screen on multiple shots when played on 2 different computers…so RMA forthcoming and looking for a refund.
DAVE is the Sanyo decent in lower light? I also looked and it seems that the Xacti you recommended is discontinued….there does seem to be a newer version, but not sure if the specs are similar. Also, is the battery life reasonable on that cam? I saw that it used a small battery and a spare was like $40!!!
I know that I am looking for a lot in a low-cost camera, but my miniDV shoots a lot nicer than the Kodak and was like $300 10 years ago!!!
Thanks for the input!!

Scott Francis
Mind’s Eye Audio/Video Productions

[John Rofrano]

[Scott Francis] “I know that I am looking for a lot in a low-cost camera, but my miniDV shoots a lot nicer than the Kodak and was like $300 10 years ago!!!”

Look at the size of the glass lens on your MiniDV camera and then look at the plastic pinhole of a lens on these $99 cameras and that should give you the answer. You are not going to get good low light performance with such a small lens (and equally small sensor).

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com

[Dave Haynie]

I recommended the FH1A… I have the FH1. The one difference… the FH1A has this stupid Apple “iFrame” ever-so-slightly-better-than-SD mode. Apparently they make too many Macs out of cheap laptop motherboards, they can’t handle full HD… or something. Anyway, that’s not a real problem, other than the likelihood that many consumers will buy these and think they’re shooting in HD, but won’t be.

This is a decent low-light camera for the money. It’s got an f2.0 lens, 1/2.5″ CMOS sensor. It also supports a couple of 1080/30p, 720/30p, and 480/30p modes, so you can shoot at 1/30th sec, and gain another f-stop. Also offers full manual controls… a little weird, they’re all photo style (eg, ISO settings rather than gain).

This is no match for my Pansonics, and the lens isn’t as good as my old Sony HVR-A1, but I’d give it the edge in low-light over the Sony. It’s not much larger than a “flip” style camera, and cheap enough to drag along places I wouldn’t risk a better camcorder.

Some of the better Flip-style, like the Kodak Zi8, might produce similar quality video, but they lack a zoom lens. The Zi8 is one of the few of this class with a larger sensor (also 1/2.5″), but then again, it’s an f2.8 lens, so you lose an f-stop versus the Sanyo. The Kodak, like most of that type, also has a fixed-focus lens, so no close focusing… the Sanyo has a macro mode. The Kodak does use reasonable “real-camcorder” recording bitrates, up to about 20Mb/s depending on mode… many of the Flip-style models use about half that, or less.

Just pointing it out.. it’s a little risky to recommend any consumery model like the Sanyo on a board like Creative COW, since most folks here know their stuff, and some will not be happy with any tiny pocket-sized camcorder. I figure having a camcorder with me is better than not having one, but I’d like that to be as little of a compromise as possible. Check out the reviews on this… I think there’s a full review of the FH1 or FH1A on camcorderinfo.com. While not in precisely the same class as the Zi8 or the Flips, this is under $300… Fry’s had them for $200 (now sold out), so it’s pretty much the high end of that price class. And the still photos aren’t too shabby, either.

-Dave

[John Rofrano]

[Dave Haynie] “Just pointing it out.. it’s a little risky to recommend any consumery model like the Sanyo on a board like Creative COW, since most folks here know their stuff, and some will not be happy with any tiny pocket-sized camcorder.”

I agree but I would put it in a slightly different way… People should not expect a $100 camera to perform like a $500 camera, or a $500 camera to perform like a $1,000 camera, or a $1,000 camera to perform like a $2,000 camera… but THEY DO!!! It’s wacky. You get what you pay for and the HD from $120 Kodak Zi8 is not going to look like the HD from a $1,800 Sony HVR-A1U. On a bright sunny day you can be fooled, but as soon as conditions are slightly sub-optimal, you will see a difference… and that difference is what you are paying more money for.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com

[Scott Francis]

Thanks guys, I should have known and gone with my gut that a small camera wouldn’t shoot anywhere close to my FX1’s and such…really wasn’t expecting it too, just in normal light, I thought it would be better. I just need something reasonable to give to a young girl/boy to shoot backstage at dance recitals, and maybe for personal use too for my son from time to time. For a behind-the-scenes look I don’t mind a little noise, but the Kodak was noisy in normal house lighting. My current miniDV is so old I thought “maybe” technology would have caught up, but is this case it has not!!! In bright daylight it wasn’t too bad however, but with the sensor having the glitch, I didn’t want to return it and have another one shipped out. I will see IF I can find a Sanyo since it appears that they discontinued it and may have put out a newer version….thanks again for all the input and happy editing!!!

Regards

Scott Francis
Mind’s Eye Audio/Video Productions

[Dave Haynie]

Right.

It’s also a point that, for increasingly quality, you pay increasingly more. A $4000 camera isn’t 10x better than a $400 camera at most things… but it’s better enough, when you need it to better. For professional work — consumers won’t care enough to make that an important difference.

It’s also the march of technology. The 8Mpixel sensor in that Sanyo probably is better at just about everything than the 3Mpixel sensor in the HVR-A1. Software does pixel bucketing, so you don’t get the color fringing you used to get with a single sensor. The Sony has better controls, a better lens, XLRs, etc… so it’s a better overall camera. But technology has marched on, and also, quite a bit of what you pay for on a high-end camera isn’t the imaging, it’s the other capabilities, the controls, etc.

My main camera these days is a Panasonic HMC40… low-end pro or high-end consumer, whatever you want to call it. For less than half the price, I also bought a TM700… which has an upgraded version of the same imaging path (lens, sensor) as the HMC40. Most the time, when I shoot with two cameras, one’s mounted on a tripod anyway — so any money spent for better controls is wasted. Even better audio is questionable… I have a mic on the HMC40 that was more than half the price of the TM700, and I usually have one or more stand-alone field recorders going too. So audio on the “B” camera is largely just for synch. A more expensive camera won’t give you a better image… except in low light. Of course, I could get a DSLR for about the price of a TM700 that’s going to give me better low-light results than a high-end 2/3″ camcorder… but has its own set of issues.

The nice thing is, it’s not necessarily an either/or choice. The right tool for the job, at least within budget, is why my camera/camcorder collection keeps growing.

-Dave