MIni DV Duplicator

[Steve Eisen]

Two MiniDV cameras connected via firewire.

G5 Dual 2.5 160GB System 400GB Media Drive ATI 9800 256MB 6 GB RAM
Dual Gig Quicksilver 1GB RAM 80 GB System drive (3) 250 GB internal media storage
15″ Al Powerbook 1.25 1GB RAM
OS 10.4.2 FCP 5, DVDSP 4, QT 7.02, Boris Red 3GL 2.45 TB External Stor

[Kevin C.]

thanks so much Steve.
Yes I could do that, but being that I may be doing a lot of duplicating in future, a cheap, efficient, dedicated deck for that (preferably that could de it a multiple speed without quality loss– possible??) — would be preferable — less wear and tear on two cameras. Any idea anyone?

[Thaxter Clavemarlton]

[Kevin C.] “(preferably that could de it a multiple speed without quality loss– possible??)”

Ah Hah!

You’re thinking you might high-speed dub like on AUDIO duplicators.

Nope.

Video duplication has always been one-to-one speed (except in certain camcorders which are designed to copy to a HD at increased speed.)

Since there is no commercial NEED for “duplicating” DV (no consumers are renting/viewing movies on DV) I know of no such devices.

I have no idea why you’d need to duplicate several copies of a DV tape for distribution, but no matter.

If you want to just copy the audio and video (without NEEDING the MATCHING Timecode), buy several DV camcorders (or decks) with FireWire (consumer-level is fine) and connect them to any DV playback unit.
If NEED the Timecode to MATCH the master on any and all dubs, you will need to buy decks that accept external TC.

The lowest-cost reliable DV DECK for this MIGHT be the Sony DSR-11.

Here’s the sticky part, although you can buy FireWire “Hubs”, I don’t know if you can make more than ONE deck connected to a player copy a tape correctly, TC and all.

Again, since there no widespread NEED for this kind of dubbing, you may have to be a “pioneer” if you want to try it.

[Kevin C.]

thanks Thax!!

Here is the need:

I shoot some mini DV, and I then Fed ex it to an editor to edit for me.

But damn if I’m sending the only copy! I need backup and sure as hell don’t want to fill up hard drives. I can’t believe I’m the only one with this idea or need!???

So, hence I was hoping for a mini DV Duplicator like a cassette duplicator or a vhs duplicator. Does not exist??

You ask, if you need timecode to match. Match to what? If you make a duplicate, aren’t you getting, by definition, a duplicate of the original tape? don’t follow what you are saying. thanks!!!!!!!!!!

[Bouncing Account needs new email address]

[Kevin C.] “I was hoping for a mini DV Duplicator like a cassette duplicator or a vhs duplicator. Does not exist?”

Well, no…

and yes (kind-of).

A one-to-one “duplicator” would basically be just two DV units connected together.
Since the copy would be at “times-one” speed anyway, there’s no need to spend a lot of money on what a “built-in-one-case” unit like this would likely cost.

[Kevin C.] “You ask, if you need timecode to match. Match to what?”

What we are discussing. That the copy’s TC will exactly match the original’s TC.

[Kevin C.] “If you make a duplicate, aren’t you getting, by definition, a duplicate of the original tape?”

Of the Audio and Video, YES.
But there’s never a guarantee in making copies (of ANY format with TC) that the TC will be transferred intact.
And that means you can have a CHOICE in this matter and that is sometimes a GOOD choice to have.

TC is very valuable… if it is “good” continuous TC.
The edit system can tell exactly where on a tape it is, both NOW and in future edits.

But, if the master tape (any format) has discontinuous TC (blank holes, TC re-sets, “jumps” in time) depending on the system and the operator, the editor can make inaccurate “decisions” based on the faulty TC… and future edits (re-edits, or edits made off-site) might be MUCH more difficult or inaccurate.

If the master does have “bad” TC, you can easily make a copy on another unit that will have (self-generated) new “replacement” TC.

With digital tapes, if you make a direct “clone” of the audio and video (in DV, that would be a FireWire copy) there will be no A/V generation loss, but (in most cases) the TC will be generated by the record unit and it will be NEW and continuous.
Then you would only use the NEW copy of the tape for the edit.

Making a FW copy of a mini DV tape is as easy and inexpensive as connecting ANY two DV camcorders via FW (even a very basic “home-video” camcorder will make a perfect no-loss digital copy of even a pro DV tape). I own several used DV “home video” camcorders that I bought at pawn shops for LESS than $150 each (!). They work great as back-up “decks” and for dubbing.
But, they will NOT make copies that have the original Timecode coming from the master, they will generate their own new TC as they copy the A/V.

If, however, you NEED a DV copy that DOES have the exact TC of the original master tape (so you have a “perfect” back-up) then you need to record to a DV unit that has the ability to accept and record EXTERNAL TC along with the audio and video.

Not all units have this feature.

FWIW, the least expensive (but very reliable) DV deck that DOES have the ability to record the incoming TC along with the A/V is the Sony DSR-11. (Google for more info.)

At about $1500-$1600 USD the DSR-11 is not as inexpensive as just making a copy between two DV camcorders, but I guess that price would still be WELL BELOW what you would have to pay for a commercially-made “DV Duplicator” (if such things were available).

Sorry for the “mini-book” length, but from the basic nature of your questions, I took the time to more fully explain some of these concepts.

[Kevin C.]

thanks Matte:
don’t worry about length. Much rather have a thorough answer

So If I fill up a 60 min mini DV tape of footage, and hook up two mini DV, with firewire, original in one and a blank in another. hit play on original and record on other, bam I have perfect copy.

And it sounds actually, like the copy, might even have “better”‘ timecode if the original had breaks or dropouts, correct?

I can’t see the need for having the original timecode in the dupes to be honest. I’m trying to think of scenario for that, and all I can think of is if you had a very high end project that was being worked on by several people.

But for my own personal shorts it should be ok.

I guess if you did a lot of work, and then needed to re-capture, but lost your original and had to go to a copy, that would be another scenario for wanting to match the timecode, but that’s one in a million so I wont worry about it, unless there are other scenarios I have thought of.

Glad to hear that most mini DV camcorders will make perfect copies, that was my next question.

Actually, I bought a Canon ZR 45 for like $360 or so a year ago to use as a deck, but if I need to make a lot of backup copies down the road, as I think I will, once my projects start to really roll, I’m thinking then, just get another cheap camcorder, and not put the wear and tear on my GL1 which is $2000 camera, smart no? and don’t you think buying new is wiser? With used camera you risk, worn heads no — which could make poor copies? You never know the wear and tear on them.

[Bouncing Account needs new email address]

[Kevin C.] “So If I fill up a 60 min mini DV tape of footage, and hook up two mini DV, with firewire, original in one and a blank in another. hit play on original and record on other, bam I have perfect copy.

And it sounds actually, like the copy, might even have “better”‘ timecode if the original had breaks or dropouts, correct?”

Yes.

[Kevin C.] “I bought a Canon ZR 45 for like $360 or so a year ago to use as a deck, but if I need to make a lot of backup copies down the road, as I think I will, once my projects start to really roll, I’m thinking then, just get another cheap camcorder, and not put the wear and tear on my GL1 which is $2000 camera, smart no?”

Smart.

[Kevin C.] “and don’t you think buying new is wiser? With used camera you risk, worn heads no — which could make poor copies? You never know the wear and tear on them.”

Up to you.

I ALWAYS buy used or demo gear when possible.
Equipment goes obsolete too quickly.
I have professional Reel-to-reel audio decks, 3/4″ Umatic VCRs, Piles of S-VHS and VHS decks, Turntables, Audio cassette decks…
You know, they all still work perfectly, cost me a lot of money and they are now USELESS “boat anchors”.

If you buy one “New” home-vid camcorder for $450 or THREE used ones for a total of $375, which will have worn-out heads the sooner?
I have never had one with worn-out heads anyway.

In a couple of years the miniDV format will be just like Reel-to-reel is now, I’m afraid… still works, but why bother with it?

[Kevin C.]

thanks Matte.

Maybe I’ll go used and hope it’s in clean condition… great info!

[Bouncing Account needs new email address]

[Kevin C.] “Maybe I’ll go used and hope it’s in clean condition…”

In my car, I always carry a DV tape that was recorded on one of my camcorders.

If I happen to pass a pawn shop and can stop, I look for used gear.
If there’s a “bargain price” on a DV camcorder, I’ll bring in my DV tape and play it just to see if the heads are aligned to my “known-good” master.

I always ask for a “better price” because you never know how “eager” the shop is to “turn” thier merchandise. Sometimes I hit on a great deal!

I’ve paid as little as $90 for a little Sharp DV camcorder with the LCD on the back. A “spare deck” for only $90 is not a bad deal. Plus, I could even use it as an “extra” shooting cam under “dangerous conditions” and not worry about damaging my better gear.

The most versatile camcorders and decks are from SONY and PANASONIC.
With these brands (but NOT most other brands), the home video units will PLAYBACK tapes recorded on “pro” camcorders at DVCAM speed.
They will, of course, not RECORD in DVCAM speed, but they are designed to play this format perfectly so you can use them to dub to other units or Capture from DVCAM tapes.

A couple of months ago at a pawn shop I “frequent”, I found a Sony GV-D1000 miniDECK. The kind with the 4″ LCD screen in the clam-shell flip-top.
It was in mint condition with cables and the MANUAL.
(Current Sony unit with a list price of $1400 USD, street price of about $1000.)
The asking-price was $250(!)
The manager said he had just put it on display, so he wouldn’t cut the asking-price, but, since he didn’t expect many customers would have use for a DV unit that didn’t “take pictures” he would discount the unit by the amount of the sales tax and sell it to me for exactly the marked price of $250.
Well, the GV-D1000 is now sitting in the edit bay next to me as I type this.
These kind of “finds” are not common, but they happen with enough frequency that I tend to “stop and browse” if I’m near a pawn shop.

Where to buy…
There is a national chain of pawn shops here that offers a MONEY-BACK guarantee on electronic items. Some local owners do this as well.
So, if I get a unit home and find any unseen important flaws, I have 30 days to return it for cash. Very nice policy. (Although I’ve never actually needed it on a DV item, I did take back a DVD player that was prone to “skipping”. They just took it back and handed me the cash!)
It would make sense to ask about return policies when shopping.

I’ve bought brand new items for full price with flaws. It happens.
I’ve bought used items for twenty-cents-on-the-dollar with flaws.

But when I can find a “lightly-used” item for 20%-40% the price of new, and it performs perfectly… it just makes it all the sweeter.

[Kevin C.]

thanks Matte:
How to you know the heads are aligned? You just eye it? what you see the playback looks like on the used LCD.

I guess the you would not recommend buying from Ebay, ie through UPS sight unseen. Never bought anything before from a pawn shop, but will notate this advice.

BTW your tape is mini DV?

I”d be buying used for duping purpose, but I guess you would know pretty soon if the unit was bad at any point?