Migrating FCP to Avid

[Walter Biscardi]

What’s going on with your system? FCP 5.0.2 is very stable here with OS 10.4.2.

Improper installation of the OS and FCP can cause a host of issues along with improper media drive setup.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Creative Genius, Biscardi Creative Media
https://www.biscardicreative.com

Now in Production, “The Rough Cut,” https://www.theroughcutmovie.com

Now editing “Good Eats” in HD for the Food Network

“I reject your reality and substitute my own!” – Adam Savage, Mythbusters

G5 Dual 2.0, AJA Kona 2, Medea FCR2X

[Shane Ross]

What are your issues? Maybe we can work them out so that you don’t have to go thru the headache of trying to convert.

Avid and FCP capture media in ENTIRELY different ways, so I don’t know if it will be possible, especially if your media is to be the full online quality. Automatic Duck will convert the EDL’s rather nicely, and Sebsky’s tools the bins, but I am not sure about the media.

How can We help you finish this on FCP?

[D.z.gilad]

heh heh … I _almost_ wrote in my original post “let’s not even get into my issues with FCP”, because I was afraid this would degenerate into an Avid vs. FCP discussion, which for me is a no-brainer. Part of me wants very much to take this whole thing to Avid … but more on that later…

The main issue right now is, I’ve been getting extremely sluggish performance, “green screens” where there should be black, and having to manually render each piece of a sequence because FCP won’t auto-render, or all-render.

I spoke to a friend who told me I was suffering the “dupe detection” bug. She went through the same thing, did all the research, and insists that once you’ve used DD even once on ANY seq in a project, the whole thing is corrupt, and there’s no going back, even by turning DD off and trashing prefs, etc. After much banging of head against wall, she took out two weeks to migrate the gig to Avid, recaptured everything, and isn’t looking back.

I simply cannot afford, with our schedule and size of job, to “discover” during our conform several months down the road that my projects are corrupted. I need to nip this in the bud right now. i got rid of the “green screen” (trashed prefs, disabled DD) but am extremely nervous about unseen corruption which could surface later.

This is putting aside the fact that having to work WITHOUT dupe detection is a nightmare to begin with. I use it ALL the time. (e.g., When you’ve got 1000 hours of footage, how else are you supposed to quickly figure out which footage you haven’t seen? Or haven’t used in your 2 hour sequence? etc.)

And now for the ranting! (Anyone who has an emotional attachment to FCP, skip this section.)

(background: I’ve been a professional freelance Avid editor and motion graphics designer since 1996, mostly in NY; have spent 50% of that time on Macs, and 50% on PCs. Started working in FCP about 3 months ago.)

Here are the reasons that in 3 months have brought me to the conclusion that Final Cut junk.
PLEASE tell me if I’m missing something.

These are all tasks that I perform ALL the time, which FCP simply cannot do, or require several steps which on Avid require only one.

1. relinking to media of diff resolution based on reel and timecode:

I’ve got 1000 hours loaded at RT. My asst loaded selected chunks at DV. I want to relink whatever piece of my sequence to the hi res stuff. FCP does not relink based solely on reel and timecode. I’m supposed to manually reconnect to QT files? On Avid, I can just tell it to find those pieces of media, whether they’re part of a bigger clip or not, anywhere on my system, all automatically.

2. total running time of a group of clips.

If I select a group of clips, and want to know their total running time, I have to go to Media Manager, select “recompress”, and then hover over the lower green bar. On Avid, i just hit ctrl-i. Done.

3. show reel name (or anything else) in the timeline

The only thing FCP can show me in the timeline is the name of a clip. What if I want to display the reel name?

4. project size and time to open

FCP projects are several times larger (in MB) than on Avid. And they take MUCH longer to open. Many times, by the time I get a project open, i’ve forgotten what i wanted from it in the first place.

5. 12-hour timeline limit

Why can’t I have a seq longer than 12 hours? When working on huge jobs like this, I often put all the footage for a particular category or location in one giant timeline, for finding shots, finding dupes, etc. I’ve never hit a limit in Avid.

5B. seq in viewer

On Avid you can load a sequence in the viewer. This allows you to keep one of these huge footage seq’s available on the left. You find your shot, edit it in. Quick. On FCP, I have to switch between tabs, use cut and paste, which rarely works consistently. On large projects, you cannot be bothered to find footage by looking at individual clips in a bin. You put all your selects in a long “string” and find your footage from there. This process is infinitely more elegant on Avid.

6. “Find” errors

“Find Bin” or whatever it’s called in FCP, often don’t work. If I have umpteen browser windows open, it doesn’t pull the right one to the foreground.

7. change clip info

if i change logging info (location, day/night, etc) on a master clip, FCP does not automatically update subclips which are derived from it.

8. edits don’t assume playhead position as IN

If i’ve found a spot in the viewer, and then insert or overwrite with no IN point marked, FCP assumes I want the head of the clip, rather than where my playhead is! This is totally stupid.

9. cannot use page up/down in timeline

Moving around timeline is a slow, painful process. When I zoom in, it doesn’t automatically center on the playhead.

10. lose marks from master clips not in proj.

If I “match frame”, and the master clip is not “in” the current project, any markers I add are lost as soon as it leaves the viewer.

11. can’t make subclip from match-framed master not in proj

If I pull up a master clip by match frame from a seq, and that clip is not in the current project, I cannot make a subclip from it. I have to drag from the seq to the browser to make another copy of the master, and only then can make a subclip.

12. delete multiple audio level keyframes?

have not figured out how to do this. followed instructions in manual. can only delete one at a time.

13. cut/paste from seq to seq — track highlight ignored!

I select a bit of video on V1 in seq 1. I copy it. I go to seq 2. i want to paste into V2. V2 is highlighted, patched, etc. I paste. The video goes over V1! So i deselect v2, then reselect it, then paste again, and now it works! This is stupid.

14. change speed of clip within seq

I want to change the speed of a clip in a sequence. Unless it’s at the very tail, FCP says, “a conflict occurred during a trim operation”. Avid has no problem. This is stupid.

15. no “show media relatives” command.

16. no “sift” command. FCP’s “find all” is extremely slow and cumbersome.

17. To jump somewhere in a timeline, I have to click INSIDE that annoyingly narrow little timecode strip at the top. On Avid I can click ANYWHERE. Much faster, much smarter.

18. Why do I need so many track patch/select/etc buttons? On Avid, a track is either on or off. simple. auto patching. quicker.

19. no “fade” command. On Avid I position myself 13 frames from a cut, hit “fade”, and i get a dissolve exactly 13 frames long ending at the cut. On FCP I have to add a dissolve, THEN adjust the length.

20. Moving columns around in a bin is EXTREMELY slow. Extremely difficult to get it where you want it. No “scroll mark” to include frozen columns on the left.

21. No “main” browser window for a project. Very confusing which “tabs” are projects, which are bins.

22. No keystroke for moving from tab to tab.

23. Can’t use “tab” to move between fields in a dialog. Not consistently, anyway. Not in the “find all” window.

24. nested seq

If I’ve nested a bit of a seq, when I double click it to open the original, FCP does NOT take me to the corresponding point in time. This is stupid. 99% of the time you open a nested seq, you’re doing it to have a look at the same point you were just looking at! FCP makes me manually find that point.

25. non-layer-based effects

Avid allows you to construct your effects in layers, so if you change one, you don’t need to re-render everything.

26. mixing frame sizes

FCP is inconsistent about dropping footage of different dimensions. sometimes it “automaticall” scales and distorts the footage to fit the seq settings. sometimes it doesn’t, and i get “shrunken” RT footage in a DV seq. It should assume I want everything to fill the frame unless i tell it otherwise.

27. Extend edit

FCP makes me select the edit. Avid is smart enough to figure out where the extend should come from. An unnecessary extra step and mouse move.

28. TRIMMING

I can’t even begin to describe how awful FCP’s trimming functions are (including slipping, sliding, dynamic trimming, etc.) Avid simply blows it away. And at least 70% of editing is trimming. This alone would be a deal breaker.

29. COLOR CORRECTION

The main purpose of color correction is to achieve a consistent look from shot to shot. But FCP only shows me the shot I’m correcting!!! How am I supposed to compare it to the shot before and the shot after?! The only thing I could figure out was to (a) drag the color correction tab out of the viewer, (b) match frame the previous shot into the viewer, (c) go back to the CC window. Then when I move to the next shot, the CC window disappears, and I have to do it all again. This is absolutely stupid. Furthermore, making the corrections is excruciatingly slow.

Avid shows me three shots at once. More controls. Faster response.

30. snapping & scrubbing

I need to turn these functions on and off about 40 times per hour of work. On FCP, this means hitting a key to toggle their state each time. Annoying. On Avid, I simply hold a modifier when I need it. Much more intuitive, quick, and elegant. No “damn, need to let go of the mouse because I forgot snapping was on, then turn it off, then grab the clip again, then drag it again”

Those are the main problems for now.

Don’t get me wrong — FCP is far easier when it comes to resizing images, doing “boxes”, and … um, that’s all I can think of.

Maybe it’s good for small projects. Maybe it’s easier to learn. But for a large project, with tons of media, and in a professional setting where speed is everything, it lags FAR behind Avid.

It seems that Apple are intent on jamming it full of features, and making it user-friendly, but ignoring the logical needs of professional editors. I am forced to reach for the mouse much too often, where on Avid i can do nearly EVERYTHING from the keyboard.

As a whole, it runs much slower than Avid in the areas that count — updating the timeline, performing cuts, adding dissolves. (BTW, I am using a Dual 2.5GHz G5 with 4GB RAM. Avid Xpress Pro HD on my Dual 2.8GHz Intel machine is MUCH much faster.)

On top of all this, there’s the original fear I posted about getting corrupted projects.

Please tell me if there are quicker ways to do all these things. Every time I turn to one of my FCP-savvy assistant, they offer a “workaround” which involves 4-5 steps, where on Avid I could accomplish the same thing in one step.

Avid has no shortage of problems, bugs, and workarounds — i could rant about Avid, too — but these issues are NOT related to the work which comprises 90% of all professional editing, i.e., managing media, finding the footage you want, making edits, and trimming. In all these areas, FCP is pathetically cumbersome, slow, inconsistent, and illogical.
I know at least 50 working editors with over 5 years’ experience, and the ONLY ones who are using FCP are doing so because it was cheaper than Avid.

OK, I’m done ranting. Have at me.

Ze’ev

[Debe]

I won’t address any specifics.

I understand your frustrations. Many of them you’ve created yourself by trying to force FCP to be something it’s NOT…Avid.

I say this as an Avid editor (certified in ’93) and a FCP editor (since ’99. certified in 2004).

I wrestled with many of the very same complaints you outlined here for five years over many versions. I finally realized that I was doing myself and my clients a huge disservice spending my days trying to find “Avid workarounds” to FCP. FCP isn’t designed to be an Avid. I wasted so much time trying to force the software to fit my understanding of what an NLE should be. I took the Apple training course in 2004 and have a whole new appreciation for FCP. I still acknowledge it’s limitations, especially the Media Manager. But your complaints about Color Correction mean you haven’t even tried to read the manual on Color Correction. You certainly can see your other shots, if you use the Tool Bench. You can’t expect to sit down at a whole new piece of software and just “get it”.

The more you try to shoe-horn FCP into the Avid model, the more disappointed you will be.

You need to either take the course or at the very least, go through the PeachPit Press Pro Training Series on your own to really appreciate FCPs strengths. There are many, and of course, there are weaknesses.

FCP has a different architecture and a different design from Avid. It will never BE an Avid, and if that’s what you need, then stick with Avid. I personally use them both, love them both, and understand each one’s strengths and weaknesses. When I’m lucky, I get to choose which app I get to use for each project. There’s nothing like having two great tools to do the job and getting to choose which one is the right one!

As for your specific complaints, a great majority of them would be moot if you had some training. The rest, those you are more than free to use to prove FCP is “inferior” to Avid. Before you can make that argument, you need to be able to know which complaints are fixable by learning something, and which are limitations of the app.

Respectfully,

debe

[Shane Ross]

Well said Debe.

Yeah, trying to make one NLW behave exactly like another is an imposibility. They simply do not have the same way of doing things. If they did, then one would get sued by the other and the copy-cat would die a ligiteous (is that a word?) death.

Get your mind out of the Avid world…and into the FCP world. Every time I switch from Avid (Certified 1995) to FCP (self taught, no certification) I have to switch gears and re-plot my thinking.

[D.z.gilad]

debe —

I accept what you say; I do not pretend to be an expert on FCP after just a few months. (I did discover just now how to see the previous shot during color correction.)

However, there are certain “activities” which are basic to the editing process, and which have nothing to do with the workflow of a particular piece of software.

For example: finding a shot. Let’s say I have 40 hours of footage. How can I find a good shot most efficiently? Is it by individually clicking on a tiny clip icon, then viewing that clip, then repeating this process 800 times for the other clips in my bin? Or is it more efficient to string all those clips together into a 40 hour timeline which I can scrub or fast forward through, edit directly into my sequence, and add markers wherever I see something that I like? Every editor I know uses strings. And using strings is clearly limited on FCP. Why on earth would I want a platform that limits my strings to 12 hours, when I can have one which doesn’t? Why would I want to be forced to cut and paste between sequences, without even a shortcut for moving between them, when with Avid I can simply edit straight from one to the other? Seriously, if you have another approach which works for you on FCP, please tell me about it! What am I missing here? How do YOU go through gobs (i.e., >12 hours) of footage?

Or: let’s say I hand over a rough cut to you. All the shots are there. I just want you to trim the cuts so that the timing is better. Maybe match some beats in the music. Honestly, which app would you choose for this task?

Granted, if the task at hand is stacking up a ton of layers, FCP is better. But that represents a very small part of my job.

Apple has ignored the simple needs which constitute the bulk of editing, in favor of too many bells and whistles. Let’s say I’ve loaded a clip in the viewer, and I want to switch to the motion tab. Is there any way to do this without picking up my mouse and clicking on that tiny tab? Wouldn’t it be faster to just press ctrl-tab? Did it not occur to Apple to include this capability?

Let me ask you: if you had 6 months to edit a 2-hour documentary from 1,000 hours of footage, which platform would you choose? Be honest!

Obviously I could learn a lot by taking a course. That’s just not feasible right now; I’m in the middle of a project where I did not have the choice of which platform to use, and I came to this forum to get “quick answers” to my questions, from people with more experience. I’m sorry if my gripes came across as pissy. I’m annoyed that I’m editing 70% slower than I usually do.

You say, “I won’t address any specifics”, but that’s why I’m asking for. If you actually DID answer some of my questions specifically, that would help a lot, especially the ones which you say “would be moot if you had some training.”

I would be much obliged if you told me which those were, and what can be done about them!
Gimme a little training!

Respect back at ya,
Ze’ev

[Walter Biscardi]

I don’t think there’s much more to add to what debe said, but my big question is why you went with FCP to begin with. Seems to me you like AVID, you’ve used AVID successfully, so why make the big switch now to FCP. Obviously FCP is not working the way you want it to so my advice would be to simply go back and use the platform you’re more comfortable with.

With so many NLE choices out there, don’t stick with one if you don’t like it, simply choose the tool you like the best and be happy. Me, I’m happy with FCP and the workflow with FCP so it’s good for me. I can’t ever see myself using an AVID because I can’t believe how much they want me to spend to get the same funcationality as I get in FCP. They’re all just tools. Pick the one you like an stay with it.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Creative Genius, Biscardi Creative Media
https://www.biscardicreative.com

Now in Production, “The Rough Cut,” https://www.theroughcutmovie.com

Now editing “Good Eats” in HD for the Food Network

“I reject your reality and substitute my own!” – Adam Savage, Mythbusters

G5 Dual 2.0, AJA Kona 2, Medea FCR2X

[Shane Ross]

I will be editing a documentary…a 2 hour History Channel show…on FCP. Why FCP? I find it faster in many respects, has better visual capabilities. Plus it can edit and output 720P HD footage. I am currently on a National Geographic series that is also shooting varicam 720p, and the Avid Adrenaline Symphony…no matter how hard it tries, cannot output 720p frame accurately. No way, no how. The solution? Capture and online 1080i and then dub down. Not the best workflow to retain a decent image.

[d.z.gilad] “Let’s say I have 40 hours of footage. How can I find a good shot most efficiently? Is it by individually clicking on a tiny clip icon, then viewing that clip, then repeating this process 800 times for the other clips in my bin?

Organization. Not only have your footage in tape bins, but also content bins. Need city b-roll, look in the CITY B-ROLL bin. Need an interview byte from Dr. Bob, look in the DR. BOB INTERVEW bin. B-roll of the kids on the playground…look in the bin called PLAYGROUND. You take all the tape footage, look at it, organize it. This is not only smart, but gets you more familiar with your footage. To be fair I also do the timeline thing, but by content. ALL JERUSALEM B-ROLL, ALL TURKEY B-ROLL. RUINS. By section.

[d.z.gilad] “t more efficient to string all those clips together into a 40 hour timeline which I can scrub or fast forward through, edit directly into my sequence”

String you footage sequence together and load it into the viewer. No problem there.

[d.z.gilad] “d add markers wherever I see something that I like?”

FCP has markers. They aren’t as easy to use or remove like Avid, but they are there.

[d.z.gilad] ” Why on earth would I want a platform that limits my strings to 12 hours, when I can have one which doesn’t?”

Then edit on an Avid. What is stopping you?

[d.z.gilad] “Why would I want to be forced to cut and paste between sequences, without even a shortcut for moving between them, when with Avid I can simply edit straight from one to the other?”

Well, you can either put it in the VIEWER and cut it in, or type TTTT (“T” four times) and click on the clip right in front of the spot you want to insert the footage. This highlights everything from that point down to thened of the timeline…then just move it, press A, put your playhead where you want to paste and PASTE. What would you do in Avid? Highlight it, put it in the clipboard or sub clip it, load it into the Preview monitor and then cut it in, right? They both accomplish the same thing. You just need to get used to a new workflow.

[d.z.gilad] ” How do YOU go through gobs (i.e., >12 hours) of footage?”

I just said that. Organization. Without it you are struggling. If you don’t have the time, hire an assistant. If you don’t have the money, then you have to do it yourself and it will take longer…and in the long run cost more money (you are more expensive than an assistant.

Now for the other questions…I won’t know the answers to all of them:

“1. relinking to media of diff resolution based on reel and timecode:”

Don’t have different resolutions. Choose one and use that. Mixing resolutions means that you will have to render one. Avid solves this by converting it to the resolution of the project. While it does this automatically, you will have to do it manually. If you are working offline RT and you assistant captured at DV quality…have them re-capture. Assistants mess up…make them fix it.

“2. total running time of a group of clips.”

Mark in at the head….go to the end, mark out. Look at the duration. Or am I missing something here?

“4. project size and time to open”

Your Avid projects don’t get HUGE? How do you manage that? Mine get plenty huge and start taking a bit to open. Faster computer and more RAM helps.

“5B. seq in viewer On Avid you can load a sequence in the viewer”

You can do this in FCP too.

“Moving around timeline is a slow, painful process. When I zoom in, it doesn’t automatically center on the playhead”

Go into the custom settings and map your keys. I did that and it does zoom to where my playhead is. I mapped the zoom function to the same keys that the Avid has them mapped to.

OH god this is taking a long time. ANd I have laundry to fold. Maybe someone else can pick up where I left off.

The thing is the answers are there. You just need to get into FCP mode and out of AVID mode.

[Debe]

And Shane Ross is the reason I figured I’d skip the specifics. Hopefully while he’s folding his skivvies, he’ll come up with more thoughts for you!

He is so organized. I hoped he or Kevin or Michael would address your numbered litany point by point, as best they can or chose to, but you also have to realize that that is an incredibly overwhelming list of gripes. My head started swimming after about #21. I merely skimmed the rest. Those guys are trained more than I am, and some of them even teach. They are all better prepared to go up against your list point by point if they choose to.

Again, I understand your frustration because I put myself in the same boat six years ago, but you have to realize you’ve walked into a Jeep Convention bitching about 4-wheel drive. You’re not going to get nearly as much help with that attitude as you would instead coming in with the understanding that FCP isn’t what you’re used to, and choosing less inflammatory language, like, “I’m stumped, with Avid I can do this, how does FCP handle that, or what can FCP do that will yield the same results?”. And before you even start to say that’s what you’ve done, go back, take a deep breath, and re-read what you wrote from outside the box. You can try to soften it all you want with your “ok, venting’s done, have at me…”, but most people stopped really reading before they got there. You’re cuteness evaporated before it had a chance to soften your gripes. Your complaints aren’t completely off base. I even share some of them, but you aren’t going to get the kind of help you need and deserve if you continue to come out of the gate loaded for bear with both barrels blazing. Now, I apologize for being harsh. This is me trying to help you help yourself.

To answer some more of your questions, but not all, because, dagnabit, I’m not at the top of my game today…

If I were organizing 40 hours of footage, you bet yer sweet bippy I’d be logging and capturing it as I go, not dumping it in and slogging through it all at once. I’m old school, from the days when media drive space was at a premium. I organize first, because that’s the way my brain is wired. I tend to recall things much better if I go one tape at a time and get to know the footage as I capture. And, yes, if I got to choose, for a long-form doc that was more organization than compositing, I’d lean towards Avid.

I will say I did “discover” the beauty of DV Start/Stop Detection last week in my stupor as I recover from surgery. I didn’t log, I just broke my tapes up into 20 minute chunks and Batch Captured them. I changed my tune on “Always Log THEN Capture” after I realized how ham-dandy that little feature is…at least with miniDV. Any one know if it works on DVCam, too? 😉 However, I’d still log tapes to omit footage I know is not going to be used so as to not clog up my drives and get in my way when I’m looking for footage.

Your workflow, even for an Avid, actually is very foreign to me. I don’t organize on the timeline, I organize in bins. I make copious notes in the bins. I use my notes I made in the bins to build my first pass. I then pass it off the producer for round one of their notes. When the producer remembers a shot I didn’t use, my notes takes me right to it. That and my stellar memory from logging the footage.

For projects that are mainly straight cuts and dissolves, for something that’s going to finish in a “real” online suite, for speed and speed alone, I’d pick Avid every time I get to choose. Anything that I’m finishing, or that’s NOT going to finish in audio post or an online suite, FCP, hands down. The integration with Motion, LiveType, and Soundtrack beats Avid and any other compositing program in my book. Anything over three layers? FCP. Anytime I’m going to want to trim multiple layers at once and speed is of the essence? Avid. Multicam? Used to be Avid…I haven’t had a FCP multicam project yet.

Now I need a nap.

Again, respectfully,

debe

[Mark Raudonis]

Dear Mr. Avid,

I recognize your complaints, ’cause I’ve heard them one hundred times before. I say one hundred, because that’s the number of true purple AVID editors that we’ve retrained for FCP. They’re now working on projects far more complex that you’ve outlined. You’ve been given very helpful, very specific advice from the posts above. I’ll give you a general point of view that you won’t want to hear. QUIT COMPLAINING! Either RTFM and learn what you need to do the job, or go back to your beloved Avid. It’s not our responsibility to make FCP work for you. The fine folks on this list have invested the time and effort to make FCP work for them. You betray your prejudice by comparing ten years of Avid knowledge to 10 minutes of FCP experience. Are you sure you’re not a troll?

mark