“Magnetic timeline” is a joke, want an option to turn it off

[Chris Kenny]

[Adam Trojan] “Apple please give a pref to turn this pro-sumer gimmick off. I want to be able to edit for real as I want. Not like you want.
“
The intent of the magnetic timeline is, as far as I can see, not to make editing easier for newbies, but to get out of the way so editors can focus on editing instead of futzing with clips. Most of what the magnetic timeline does is just about having more reasonable defaults. If you have clips A, B, C, and you drag C so its head is lined up with B’s, do you really want to overwrite B with C? Probably 99 times out of 100, you don’t. You want to swap their positions. In FCP 7, this requires a modifier key (which you have to hit after you start dragging, because if you hit it before it has a totally different function). In FCP X, swapping is the default behavior. You really want overwriting? That’s what the Position tool is for.

Do these more reasonable defaults make the app easier to use for consumers? Sure. But that’s because they make more sense, not because they remove control. I’m unclear precisely what it is about an interface that makes more sense that supposedly makes it unsuitable for professional users.

Even clip collisions are like this. I’ve seen complaints about how people don’t want FCP X moving clips to other tracks of its own volition. But it’s important to remember that FCP X is a trackless editor. It’s not bumping clips to other tracks; it’s just displaying them one above another as a way of showing them both to you at the same time.

I think particularly this last behavior is a serious area of misunderstanding and cause of resentment. A lot of people seem to be looking at the FCP X timeline as having tracks they can’t control. But that’s not really the case. Rather, it has clip connections which are precisely controllable by the user. Vertical space is just used to help display the clip connections the user has specified as clearly as possible.

Complaining you can’t control the exact details of this use of vertical space is analogous to complaining that a text editor displays flowing text, instead of allowing each character to be individually positioned within the window.

—
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.

[Jamie Franklin]

[Chris Kenny] “Complaining you can’t control the exact details of this use of vertical space is analogous to complaining that a text editor displays flowing text, instead of allowing each character to be individually positioned within the window.”

lol

yes, it’s so genius and we’re all muttonheads for not getting it

[Douglas K. dempsey]

Chris:

Very clear explanation; the case is probably that different people, using different parts of our brains, see “negative space” where others see shape and objects, etc. So the interface is obvious to some, a total counter-intuitive mystery to others.

The main thing is to spread the idea of the “trackless” editor; that is a technique I will use when I teach FCPX to my high school class next Fall. In fact, if we START with FCPX, I can then use our copies of FCP7 as a kind of “schematic, under-the-hood” metaphor showing them what it would look like if they “disassembled” an NLE and saw all the working parts laid out. “Okay kids? Now let’s put the hood back down and concentrate on driving.”

BTW, your “text editor” analogy is particularly apt, because in fact if you DO want to prohibit flowing text and have characters occupy a place on the page, you want a different app — a page-layout app.

So to carry the analogy forward, high-end pros are like page-layout and illustrator graphic artists, used to manipulating all the pieces. FCPX or more like “Pages” app in which you can toggle to layout, but start in a basic word processor where you think about your content first.

On the other hand, for many users, 90% of the tools go unused. Think about all the sophisticated tools that traditional NLE editing apps offer, whereby you can put a clip up in “the Viewer” and then insert, overwrite, replace or fit-to-fill into its proper place in the timeline… and then use a host of other tools that control sync and collisions as they ripple, trim, slip, slide etc…

And yet, in spite of all that, much NLE editing in practice turns out to be exactly the thing you describe, sliding shots around like tiles on a scrabble board, trying to come up with an order that works, a rhythm that makes sense.

For that kind of editing, many of us have gotten used to stacking clips up in vertical space, two or three choices in front of us at all times… and then laboriously doing what you describe, trying to slide and place, snap-to or overwrite, swap and so on.

So maybe for many of us, this new FCPX timeline will prove to be a cleaner approach, and it may discipline us to organize and focus on building the cut, instead of shuffling and fussing with “clean up” organizational moves — by using Auditioning, Secondary Storyline and Connected Clips to hide all that clutter except when we want to see it.

I sort of have a procedure that I do in FCP7 that approximates this, where I leave multiple video tracks stacked until I decide which shots I’m using, whether I will layer, dissolve or title, what part of the clip I want to use (Slide control) and so on. Finally, when I am close, I feel that the clutter is keeping me from seeing a clean visual representation of my cut and its rhythm, so I end up dragging all the vertical clips down onto the V1 track, essentially collapsing them into a single-track edit. So maybe using FCPX will train me to see that clean version of my cut most of the time, and I will ONLY see the expanded choices when I CHOOSE to show them.

In some ways, FCP7 versus the new FCPX is like comparing a messy desktop where everything is spread out everywhere, to a filing system (or database as FCPX actually IS) where you FIND things by keyword, or expand to view, instead of seeing everything laying in front of you at all times.

Doug D

[Ben Holmes]

Jamie

I understand why you’re frustrated with Chris’s opinion, as it contradicts your own – but there are also a lot of posts here already from people posting for the first time, who may not in some cases (I don’t know in this case) that they actually CAN slide stuff around their timeline pretty much as they used to – just using different tools. Personally, I didn’t even notice the gap behavior when I started working – to me, once I used the position tool, I was away. It confused the hell out of me at the start though – so I can see some of these posts in that light.

That doesn’t mean I think ‘you don’t get it’ or I’m saying you’re stupid. Far from it – it’s clear the new timeline is marmite – you’ll love it or hate it. Personally I care far more about ‘how fast’ and ‘how well’ I can tell the story I have to tell. Speed is essential to me – I work in live broadcast – so I approach it from a different angle. I WANT FCPX to succeed, because it shows promise in areas that matter to me. I also see a lot of complexity in it that FOR ME makes it a potentially pro software package. I don’t know anything about your experience and usage (filling out your profile here helps people to understand where you’re coming from – and if you’re new to the game, a gifted amateur, or a grizzled pro), so it makes it harder for me to understand your own views. Actually, of late, what I see are comments like this – posts declaiming people as patronising, or claiming they’re putting down your views or experience.

Don’t be defensive – get your views across. As I’ve made clear, I don’t know enough about X yet to decide if I can go forward with it – you clearly feel you have made that choice, and I’d like to hear why. Accusations and lols don’t help me or others.

Ultimately, if you’ve already decided X is not for you, why not spend your time looking at alternatives? I can only assume you believe that the angry discourse here will change the views of Apple. I don’t. I think other people have made far more eloquent and telling criticisms of the product. Together, these will turn Apple’s head a little – lead to more info from them. But it won’t change their course. I hope, like everyone else, that 7 will go back on sale. In the meantime, I bought the last two copies my reseller had so I can continue to work for the next twelve months. I can decide later about X – my gear is never a major part of my costs, these days it pays for itself many times over. I guess we have Apple to thank for that.

I’ve been a member here since 2004 I think. In this time, it’s been a valuable resource when I’ve made critical decisions in how I’ll feed my kids (I have two boys) for the next five years. Unfortunately, at the moment I can’t do that here, and I think that’s a shame. Whether you like it or not, you are currently making this forum a less pleasant place to be. Please be respectful (even in the face of views you disagree with strongly) or please leave.

Ben

Edit Out Ltd
—————————-
FCP Editor/Trainer/System Consultant
EVS/VT Supervisor for live broadcast
RED camera transfer/post
Independent Director/Producer

https://www.blackmagic-design.com/community/communitydetails/?UserStoryId=8757

[Aindreas Gallagher]

With the greatest of respect Ben, this is a forum, and you are in no position whatsoever to start telling people to leave. If you do not like the tenor of the comments right now – fine – but this forum doesn’t exist to reflect your requirements, or your tastes in topics.

FWIW, although the user date doesn’t show it, I’ve been here since day one when it was just AE – I came from the silver list and wwug – I love what the cow has grown into – an open forum for equal discussion. I agree, I think we’ve all said most of what we have to say here, but if someone wants to swing the bat a few more times, or if they find something new and annoying and want to gripe about it, that is entirely up to them Ben, it’s really nothing to do with you.

http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics

[Misha Aranyshev]

I don’t have time to first create a mess on the timeline and then spend hours cleaning it up. There is usually a director or producer in the room or over or scheduled screening and the deadline. If he sees a kind of messy timeline you describe I’ll be fired. He can have all the messy timeline he wants for a tenth of what I charge.

Editing isn’t about the order in which shots come in. Film is not a comic book. Editing is about the exact time the shots come in, exact duration they stay on screen and exact time they go out. Magnetic timeline was designed by those who think a film is a comic book. It doesn’t respect timing. There are ways around it but constantly fighting the tool you use is not a way to work efficiently.

Magnetic timeline won’t discipline anyone. It is one of the things that looks cool at a first glance but feels the more restrictive and frustrating the more you work on it. Magnetic timeline behavior is nothing new and can be found in every other NLE, shipping or discontinued. But even in the most unorthodox from the design viewpoint NLE’s this mode can be easily switched off.

[Gary Pollard]

Well said Ben. It’s getting so it’s hardly worth the effort to click most of the posts here open.

When people talk about some of the features lacking I have sympathy, but I have a lot less for “this isn’t the way I’m used to doing it”. It’s new to me too. And I’m in my fifties, but fascinated to start learning it.

The FCPX Techniques forum is more valuable at the moment.

In my first post here after a many year break, I said I liked a modular design which is good for prosumers and indies (there I said it) but where those who need other specialised features can pay extra, is a sensible business model. And increases the democratisation of production, which I also know some people HATE.

I think a lot of people here are going to be feeling pretty foolish in five years.

[Chris Kenny]

[Douglas K. Dempsey] “BTW, your “text editor” analogy is particularly apt, because in fact if you DO want to prohibit flowing text and have characters occupy a place on the page, you want a different app — a page-layout app.

So to carry the analogy forward, high-end pros are like page-layout and illustrator graphic artists, used to manipulating all the pieces. FCPX or more like “Pages” app in which you can toggle to layout, but start in a basic word processor where you think about your content first.”

Well, where that breaks down is that with a page layout app, the arrangement of the page is the final product that your audience will see, whereas the graphical representation of the timeline in an NLE is just incidental. So having detailed control over its visual presentation isn’t like having that sort of control in a page layout context, it’s like having it when writing text that’s purely functional, like, say, source code.

[Douglas K. Dempsey] “In some ways, FCP7 versus the new FCPX is like comparing a messy desktop where everything is spread out everywhere, to a filing system (or database as FCPX actually IS) where you FIND things by keyword, or expand to view, instead of seeing everything laying in front of you at all times.”

That’s a good analogy. More generally, there are a lot of parallels here to the spatial Finder vs. browser Finder holy wars that broke out a decade ago when Apple shipped OS X and abandoned the former for the later.

—
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.

[Chris Kenny]

[Michael Aranyshev] “I don’t have time to first create a mess on the timeline and then spend hours cleaning it up.”

I could write this precise sentence in support of the magnetic timeline.

[Michael Aranyshev] “Magnetic timeline was designed by those who think a film is a comic book. It doesn’t respect timing.”

Coud you explain what you mean by this? How does it not respect timing?

[Michael Aranyshev] “It is one of the things that looks cool at a first glance but feels the more restrictive and frustrating the more you work on it.”

This has been the precise opposite of my experience.

—
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.

[Stephen Bakopanos]

[Chris Kenny] “Do these more reasonable defaults make the app easier to use for consumers? Sure. But that’s because they make more sense, not because they remove control. I’m unclear precisely what it is about an interface that makes more sense that supposedly makes it unsuitable for professional users.”

Chris, you’ve been a voice of reason in amongst a sea of hysteria – thanks for keeping things a little bit grounded here. FCPX certainly does have some BIG limitations in it’s current incarnation which makes it unsuitable for broadcast editing – that much is certain – but it’s by no means a consumer app.

I wonder what the reaction would be if people had been using the FCP X workflow and magnetic timeline for the last 10 years and then Apple brought out the FCP7 workflow and timeline to replace it? I reckon we’d be seeing a similar negative response. People don’t like change.