LUT’s make my footage look like…

[Tero Ahlfors]

[Duke Sweden] “no matter what camera or film LUT I apply it never looks even as close as 80%”

That’s because LUTs do not know what you shot with what settings.

[Duke Sweden] “should I forgo LUT’s and just tweak using Lumetri or Colorista or whatever?”

Yes. That’s called grading.

[David Roth weiss]

Duke,

It’s clear after reading your post that you’re making a fundamental mistake – you mentioned that you’re “shooting flat,” but then you added that you’re using “a variety of different profiles depending upon the situation.” What you’re missing is that you’re NOT shooting flat, the built-in profiles you’re using are essentially identical to LUTs that are built-in to your camera.

When you add a LUT to those clips already affected by a profile, the LUT will never have the intended affect, because you’ve already significantly affected those clips in-camera. For example, a LUT designed to emulate film, which typically crushes the blacks and increases contrast, won’t look like film if you’ve already adjusted the look in-camera by adding a profile. By adding the profile, you’ve first limited the available dynamic range available to you in post, and second you’ve probably adjusted some or many of the very parameters the LUT would be used for in post, but now those parameters are burned-in.

So, if you’re shooting flat, shoot flat… Only use the camera profiles for stuff you’re either not going to color grade, or stuff you’re only going to adjust a bit here and a bit there. But, using profiles in-camera and LUTs in post together is a sure-fire recipe for getting unexpected results.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.

[Duke Sweden]

Thanks for your reply David, but when I said I use picture profiles, I meant flat profiles like Flaat 11, Cineflat, Tassinflat, etc. Sometimes on a dreary day I don’t need such an extreme “flattener” like Cineflat, so I go with Flaat 11. On bright sunny days with harsh shadows I’ll go flatter with Cineflat. That’s what I meant by using picture profiles, not the built in ones like Standard, Neutral, etc.

Having cleared that up, let me rephrase my original question. I can color correct so that my footage looks exactly as it did in real life. No problem getting white balance, saturation, etc. It’s afterward when I go for the so-called “film look” (as opposed to cinematic). When I add a “film emulator” LUT, my flat image either gets flatter, or extremely garish. In all the video samples the manufacturer’s present, they drop on a LUT and voila! Instant great look with a minimum of tweaking. That’s my bottom line question. Does one ALWAYS have to do some fidgeting with controls after applying a LUT? Remember, I’m as amateur as it gets, and I know most of you guys work in TV, film, commercials, etc. So I appreciate your taking the time to even answer me.

[Duke Sweden]

Looks like I stumped the pro. I win!!! 😉

[Andrew Kimery]

It sounds like you are trying to use LUTS in lieu of color grading and that’s not what LUTS are designed to do. Below are a couple of links that might help you out.

https://nofilmschool.com/2011/05/what-is-a-look-up-table-lut-anyway

https://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/understanding-luts-in-color-grading/

Here’s an example of when you might want to use a LUT. Say you are shooting w/your D5500 in Cineflat and the final project will be showing in theaters using a Sony 4K projector. While you are grading you don’t have access to a Sony 4K projector but you do have access to an HD broadcast monitor. So you make a specific LUT that when applied to your D5500 Cineflat footage, and viewed on your HD broadcast monitor, it mimics what the footage will look like if it was being displayed with Sony’s 4K projector.

Going back to David’s point, if you shoot with a variety of presents then you’ll need a separate LUT for each preset. People do throw on LUTS as quick and dirty grades, but that’s not what they were made more.

As to why your images get flatter, it’s probably because you are using a LUT that was designed to start with a relatively high contrast image and end with a relatively low contrast image (say starting with video footage that has lower dynamic range and trying to emulate a film stock that has a higher dynamic range).

[Duke Sweden]

Thank you, Andrew. That’s precisely the information I was looking for. None of the LUT suppliers tell you that, and their demo videos show a flat clip like what I’m working with, they drop on a LUT and bam! Instant finished product, but when I drop the same LUT on my footage it’s all whacked out.

On an ImpulZ demo they explain that their LUT’s ending in “FC” are for flat footage. In the video, they drop one of the FC LUT’s on flat footage and it enhances the contrast, color, etc. That’s the same LUT I used that makes my footage even flatter.

Anyway, you gave me info I was looking for, i.e. certain LUT’s are for certain types of footage. Taking Tero’s advice I’ve been doing color correction and grading myself, and then adding a film emulator LUT to get it looking more like film and less like the dreaded “Soap Opera Effect”.

Thanks again!

[Tero Ahlfors]

[Duke Sweden] “On an ImpulZ demo they explain that their LUT’s ending in “FC” are for flat footage. In the video, they drop one of the FC LUT’s on flat footage and it enhances the contrast, color, etc. That’s the same LUT I used that makes my footage even flatter.”

Here’s the thing: all “flat footage” is not created equal. Arri/Sony/Red/Blackmagic have their own standardized stuff with their own math so it’s easy to turn them into different color spaces. The DSLR flat looks are a complete crapshoot that usually do not work.

[Duke Sweden]

I can’t believe the information I’m getting here that I haven’t seen anywhere else. Thanks so much, guys. You have no idea how much I appreciate it!

[Andrew Kimery]

[Duke Sweden] “I can’t believe the information I’m getting here that I haven’t seen anywhere else. Thanks so much, guys. You have no idea how much I appreciate it!”

Helping is what the COW is all about!

[Duke Sweden]

ok, I have one other question. I’m assuming that since you guys work with professional equipment/cameras you probably don’t know, simply because you don’t deal with it, but I’ll ask anyway.

LUT’s aside, when dealing with REC 709 compressed H.264 footage from a DSLR, after color correction (which I have no problem with) what would you tweak to get a film look? I shoot in 24fps, 1080p, shutter speed 50 etc. My stuff either goes to youtube or I’ll put it on a thumb drive to watch on my tv. It doesn’t get transferred to film or anything like that.

With that info, if you can answer me that would be great. I’m not a total noob so you can be general, like “tweak your mids to 80 on the vectorscope” for example. You don’t have to completely hold my hand.

Thanks either way!

Oh, and for the record, I’m not looking for a color grading shortcut with LUT’s. I always color correct by hand, and then, because I thought I was supposed to, used LUT’s to get different “moods”. When I added blue by hand, to get a “horror film” look, for example, it came out looking bad. AHA! That’s where I got the idea of using LUT’s! I asked that question at video copilot and the pro’s there told me to use LUT’s!