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LACPUG – Randy Ubillos
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[Bill Davis] “The utility, the aesthetic, the magic of film is certainly not past. Just the production process.”
I’m talking about the process and the technology, not the actual handling of film. And that is still very valid. You know, things like syncing double-system sound. So we aren’t talking about physical film, per se.
[Bill Davis] “But the capture of moving imagery for the billion communications purposes it’s useful in – has simply moved past film. “
Hmm… Not so sure about that. Why do you think Filmic Pro exists for iPad/iPhone? My main concern is for professional users. 24p is very much alive there. In fact, the corporate & commercial projects that I work on – which are almost totally non-broadcast – are almost all shot at 23.976, with the occasional 29.97 mixed in.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters – oliverpeters.com
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[Bob Zelin] “and the fan boys reply – “yes, only if Apple releases it !”. “
Just for reference, not everyone that uses FCP X feels that way. At all.
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~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~\”It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools.\”~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~\”The function you just attempted is not yet implemented\”~ -
[Oliver Peters] “In fact, the corporate & commercial projects that I work on – which are almost totally non-broadcast – are almost all shot at 23.976, with the occasional 29.97 mixed in.
“Nobody’s arguing that the cadence issues that the jamming of color under the luma sampling that moved 24 to 23.976, or 30 to 29.97 for broadcast aren’t still real and necessary for some practitioners as we drift away from the old systems.
Just that nobody needs to run chemically treated celluloid through a camera any longer as a part of that. Not unless they’re doing it for what’s basically become a niche aesthetic reason.
And since that is no longer necessary – the NLE that’s overly constructed around those principals – is a NLE that is looking backwards, not forwards.
Accommodate those who want that? Totally fine. But holding to the idea that the lions share of the work continuing forward will NEED that – is nuts. The weight of the industry is just NOT headed in that direction.
Creator of XinTwo – https://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery. -
[Bill Davis] “Nobody’s arguing that the cadence issues that the jamming of color under the luma sampling that moved 24 to 23.976, or 30 to 29.97 for broadcast aren’t still real and necessary for some practitioners as we drift away from the old systems”
Huh? I don’t think you are understanding this very well. I wasn’t talking about incremental frame rates. Rather the aesthetic preferences for film-like frame rates. Heck, it could 24.0 or even even be 25fps for that matter.
[Bill Davis] “Just that nobody needs to run chemically treated celluloid through a camera any longer as a part of that. Not unless they’re doing it for what’s basically become a niche aesthetic reason.”
No one ever stated that except for you. You seem very hung-up on film as a medium and that’s not what was being discussed. The film processes encompass many techniques and methods that are completely independent of celluloid. It’s those processes and methods that all NLEs must still embrace to be valid for entertainment content on the web, theatrical, direct, etc.
[Bill Davis] “But holding to the idea that the lions share of the work continuing forward will NEED that – is nuts. The weight of the industry is just NOT headed in that direction.”
So taking this argument to its logical extreme, then a “forward-leaning” NLE should NOT include any of these features, because they are “old” – and BTW – largely derived from film workflows:
– Support for any frame rates under 50fps
– Support for any frame size under 4K
– Support for any horizontal, rectangular image format
– Log encoding
– Double-system sound sync
– The ability to export split-track audio (stems)
– A “magnetic” timeline– Oliver
Oliver Peters – oliverpeters.com
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[Herb Sevush] “Yes, realizing that one of the key designers of NLEs had zero knowledge of film editing techniques and needs, and almost as little understanding of previous video editing workflows, does explain an awful lot.”
How much knowledge of film editing even existed when the Movieola was released?
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[Oliver Peters] “It’s films that gave us 24fps, rightly or wrongly.”
Yes, but only after they added sound. I’m sure we can all agree that everything went downhill after the change from 18fps. 🙂
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[Scott Thomas] “How much knowledge of film editing even existed when the Movieola was released?”
The Moviola was invented in 1924, so lets say around 20-25 years. Why?
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin\’ attached to nothin\’
\”Deciding the spine is the process of editing\” F. Bieberkopf -
[Herb Sevush] “The Moviola was invented in 1924, so lets say around 20-25 years. Why?”
Because editing wasn’t the reason it was created. It evolved into that roll.
The Avid Media Composer wasn’t originally developed for film. -
[Don Walker] “I could go back for one day. I think it would be fun……”
I have very fond memories of my hybrid Analog Digital room. I had three BVW-75s, connected via component to a digital switcher. GVG-1000, 1 Channel of Kaleidoscope, Leitch 2-Ch still store and a Quanta Delta. Everything digital, apart from the tape decks. The editor was a GVG-251. I don’t want to go back, but yes, a trip down memory lane might be nice…. As long as there isn’t someone taking note that I don’t remember the K-Scope menu tree. (Remember the big poster of the menus?)
I might do better with an Abekas A53-D. It was all Noun – Verb. I would have a better chance there. ☺
Fun note, at NAB I met a guy, close to my age, who worked on the Grass Kaleidoscope team in the late 1980s. He’s now building playout servers. Nice to shake the hand of someone who worked on one of my favorite digital video devices.
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[Scott Thomas] “Because editing wasn’t the reason it was created. It evolved into that roll.”
Evolved is the wrong word. It was originally a small film projector that wasn’t selling, an editor asked if it could be converted into an editor’s viewer, and viola, the Moviola.
As for Avid, no it wasn’t originally designed for film work, but what does that have to do with anything, I’m missing the point of your statements.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin\’ attached to nothin\’
\”Deciding the spine is the process of editing\” F. Bieberkopf
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