KONA/FCP layoff problems

[Joakim Bergqvist]

Hi Mark.

I just want to tell you that we been having this problem for a long time without finding any way to fix it.
We using 5 FCP with AJA Kona 3, and the problem is for all of them.

The “funny” thing is that sometimes it can work with same offset for months and sometimes it changes offset many times per day.

our normal playback offset is “+1”, but when its not working its always “0”

do you still have the problem or did you find any solution?

// Joakim

[Mark Spano]

I have never found a solution. My systems are all different and they all exhibit these issues – it’s a Final Cut problem through and through. Tiger, Leopard, FCP6, FCP7, Kona, Decklink, they all exhibit this inconsistency. Incredibly frustrating. In troubleshooting, I’ve even tried using other serial control adapters (like the Keyspan serial USB adapter) to see if it was any better – no dice. The problem is that it is not consistent. I can do 10 layoffs and 9 of them will be perfect frame accurate. One will be off by a frame, early or late. Inserts to the machine happen on the right frame, but the video/audio come in randomly on time or out. I’ve had more consistent success with Panasonic protocol and a D5 machine, so to me it points to how the device control protocol interface is written for Sony RS-422 and Final Cut.

Not that you want to hear, but I have taken most of my finishing to Symphony as the machine control element there is way more reliable. Lucky to have that in house too. Nearly every other aspect of FCP is reliable and when it bugs out it’s a consistent issue and easily worked around – not device control.

[Chad Brewer]

Hey Mark,

Over the past few years, I’ve read a lot here about this problem and was very glad it had never happened to me. Until late last week, when of course, time was of the essence to deliver to a major network who I knew would not accept anything unless it was 100% frame accurate. Our other edit rooms were tied up. I knew that even 1 frame off was not going to cut it. Spending much of the day messing around with the device control offsets which to me are less than accurate because you can be two frames late, offset for the two frames, and then be one frame early!, I started to share yours and others insanity over this. I couldn’t fix the problem no matter what I tried and had to result to guerilla video warfare tactics to get the masters done to ship that night. By the end of the day, I had noticeably more gray hair.

I still had this edit suite on fully updated Leopard because we got the MacPro right around the Snow Leopard drop and I didn’t want to change anything as it was working fine for the last year and a half, or so I thought up until a certain point. This 1.5 year old MacPro started on FCP 7.0 and stayed there. Not updating that was probably a mistake on my part, but anyway…It was also on Kona 7.5 drivers, fully up to date…I tried going up to the 8.0 drivers and that didn’t fix it either.

I was later able to move the entire project to a 3 year old MacPro to see what was going on, but one that was running Snow Leopard, FCP 7.03 and the Kona 8 drivers. Editing to SRW-5500’s, HDW-1800’s, DVW-A500’s, everything 100% frame accurate. And on the same exact project. So I looked at everything that was different between the two.

First, I went back to the newer edit suite and got FCP up to 7.03. Still not editing frame accurate.

Second, I took the Kona drivers back down to 7.5 where they had worked before, that didn’t work. I got them back up to 8.0 and then decided in all of this mix, the only major discrepancy that could be causing a muck in all of this was the OS. Once the new suite was up to Snow Leopard, it was not until it reached 10.6.4 or above (now 10.6.7) that I got back my 100% frame accurate editing to tape.

Looking back at the madness this situation and partially myself, have put myself through, I guess I was naive to think that the hardware drivers and the pro app updates alone could fix this. After something working just fine for so long, I just didn’t think upgrading the OS would be part of the kicker. It’s not like a fully updated Leopard MacPro is subpar. I already knew that FCP, the KONA drivers, and the OS are all in an elaborate dance together where even the slightest version discrepancies can lead to this sort of madness, but I just hadn’t had the pleasure yet of the “it’s worked fine for 5,000 layoffs and now it doesn’t.”

As of “right now,” FCP 7.03, KONA 8.0, and OSX 10.6.4-7 are a recipe for 100% frame accuracy and life is back to good…

I thought I’d post this to share what solved this problem for me..

Chad Brewer
Senior Broadcast Videotape Operator
TeleVersions, LLC – Chicago

[Mark Spano]

Chad,

Thanks for posting your detailed solution and results. I intend on upgrading my systems to Snow when I make my switch over from the ailing XSan to our EditShare server some time this year. What you have given me here is a glimmer of hope that frame accuracy consistency is achievable. I hope you have continued success and that it translates over here. I will surely post here with findings when I do. Until then…

[Joakim Bergqvist]

Hi, Chad!
Its great that you have it frame accurate again, but be a bit careful cause we used “FCP 7.03, KONA 8.0, and OSX 10.6.4 and one with OSX 10.6.6 for quite a while and from time to time its not frame accurate..

problem with solving this problem is that sometimes it CAN be accurate for over 1 month, but then suddenly start to change again without any changes made.

// Joakim Bergqvist
Mastering
Stopp, Stockholm

[Chad Brewer]

Hey Joakim…I’m glad you followed on this old post..I’m glad Mark found it too…

I’m going to keep a very close eye on this…In my opinion, there should be no reason that something will just go from being frame accurate to not without changing anything regarding software/hardware…Are you sure you didn’t just change one little thing? Even an auto update on anything? I guess that even being on KONA 8.1, etc. might make for a bad mix..I bet you didn’t, I just want this issue to go away…

I will post all my findings, good or bad.

Chad Brewer
Senior Broadcast Videotape Operator
TeleVersions, LLC – Chicago

[Joakim Bergqvist]

I cannot be 100% shure that there hasn´t been any auto uppdate or someone here been updating something.
but I am using FCP 7.03, KONA 8.0, and OSX 10.6.4 and one with OSX 10.6.6, same that was ok for you.

We have one suite now with a Black Magic card, its been frame accurate since we got it, (over 6 monthes). but it has some other problem. for example the first frame you lay of is really bad quality. but then you can just have a second black before your spot.

I will also post any findings in this problem, good or bad!

Joakim Bergqvist
Mastering
Stopp, Stockholm

[Chad Brewer]

Mark, Joakim,

Everything was working rock solid for four days under the new configuration…I could perform the same edit 10 times or more in a row with 100% frame accuracy. The fifth day? Nope.

I’m talking directly with AJA about this now, but am going to start putting heavy testing in on our Blackmagic cards to see what I can rule out…

Seriously, four days straight and everything was fine. Changed absolutely NOTHING and then out of nowhere it’s back. I’m freakin’ back to being stumped and hoping it’s an FCP problem. I just don’t accept this for whatever reason the problem is. If it is FCP, I would wish they put the same effort into device control protocol as they do to catering to DSLR video formats.

Chad Brewer
Senior Broadcast Videotape Operator
TeleVersions, LLC – Chicago

[Chad Brewer]

I may have finally solved the problem…I will give this many, many days of further testing to make sure. Keep your fingers crossed.

Chad Brewer
Senior Broadcast Videotape Operator
TeleVersions, LLC – Chicago

[Chad Brewer]

I’ve got it locked down here.

Mark, I especially hope you read this because don’t give up on frame accuracy with your upcoming Snow Leopard and Kona stations.

Final Cut X and Lion? I don’t care at this point. I’ve found what works now and won’t touch anything new until it is proven to work without me having to be hospitalized over it.

AJA was more than helpful in all of this. Kudos to that entire company for their support! They did a lot of tests on their end based on my specific request. I already knew, but what a top-notch company they are.

Chad Brewer
Senior Broadcast Videotape Operator
TeleVersions, LLC – Chicago